A closer look at Explosion Damage

[Magesmiley]

Okay... I've been thinking about explosion damage a bit more and have concluded that the ways that the rules are written, it isn't worth much to the player making the attack. It's like regular damage... but less useful (unless they have only a single control token left, you are making two attacks total, and it is your first attack). Explosion damage is actually more helpful to players whose turns are after yours.

Combat occurs after all movement has finished. Generally, there are very few uses for control tokens after everyone is done moving. The only real penalty is that running out means that you can't use your speed for defense. Which isn't useful for the attack being resolved. Just subsequent ones.

Tire damage for not enough control tokens only occurs during a driving roll or collision and spinouts only occur during slides and turns. So... no real effect there during combat.

And after combat, we're at the end of the round, everyone is discarding their control markers and will be shortly picking more up, so being out isn't much of a penalty.

Explosion effects do get to ignore any defending shields. However, only the first wrench is an explosion effect. Any others are converted to stars, which defending shields do apply to. As do any wrenches if they are out of control tokens.

So we end up with an effect that gets soaked up by control tokens whose loss is usually not real useful to the player making the attack, and often won't make much of a difference to the player who is losing them. It only matters if they actually run out AND they are subsequently attacked AND they are going fast enough that their speed matters. That's a lot of ands.

What does this mean? Well, by the numbers, for explosion damage cards, a wrench is generally less valuable than a star.

Take a look at the hammerhead (set 3) and the buffalo gun (core). Both cost 6 and same DP and mounting restrictions. So they make a pretty good comparison. Dice are nearly the same, with the buffalo gun (SSYGG) having an additional green die instead of the blue on the hammerhead (SSYGB). The hammerhead has an explosion wrench effect, the buffalo gun does not.

Yellow and blue dice do not have any wrenches. Green averages .333 wrenches per roll (two faces). Green dice average .833 stars per roll, and blue .5. So, switching from a green die to a blue and gaining an explosion effect trades an average .333 star damage for .333 explosion on the remaining green die.

Not a good trade IMO, as the increased control token loss generally isn't as valuable. It might be in some situations, but overall, higher average stars is better. So, overall I'd consider the hammerhead a weaker weapon choice than the buffalo gun.

(Incidentally, for nomenclature talking about dice:
S = Star
R = Red
Y = Yellow
G = Green
B = Blue
K = Black
W = White)

[1sand0s]

That explanation is sound, so I would agree. Explosive combat damage after movement seems pointless since you get control tokens refreshed the next turn. Just as a thought experiment, I wonder if a few extra things could make it worth it.

First, with the Hammerhead / Buffalo gun example, trading the green for blue die does seem worse because of the lack of wrenches on blue. Using the Hammerhead you have a .5 chance of completely missing with the blue while you have a .1667 chance of missing with the green. It may only do control damage .333 of the time though. Compare that to the Buffalo gun, BOTH green dice have a chance of missing since only the stars count. It's minute and situational, but it seems like the Hammerhead could be more reliable at the cost of hitting as hard.

Second, I think game length may matter. Since they are 6 BP, they can only be used in cars that have 24 BP or higher, which normally means a longer game. I've not gotten to play my copy yet, but from SJ's demo games on YouTube, it seems even in a short, low BP game, control is important. In a longer battle of attrition, control might be even more important. Throw in explosive mines deployed early game, being low on control because your tires are shredded, and being on the brink of control, one well timed explosion could push your opponent out of control. I think explosive mines would be more impactful since you'd lose control tokens WHILE you are in the movement phase.

To me, it seems like it could be explosive damage is for reliable damage over time, thus a late game strategy, while something with more star damage is more of a rushdown strategy. So yeah, it's most likely situational to if it's needed or not.

I'm no expert though but it's fun to think about. It will be interesting to see how strategies develop over time.

[beetle496]

Glad to find that you have this started with this thoughtful exposition @Magesmiley!

Now that I have my cards sorted, I am starting to look for patterns, and hoping to maybe spot some of the better damage-per-BP ratios.

An obvious first challenge is: What numerical value to assign the wrenches? What about special effects like fire and re-roll?

From this post, I am thinking maybe just .5 per wrench (when they have an effect), but give +1 to weapons which can cause fires?

Also, if no special effect is noted (e.g., Slug weapons), am I correct to understand that Wrench is a miss?

Related, the White die (which relatively few weapons use) has a double shield. On offense, is that just a regular miss?

[JimTullis]

Beetle496, there is a lot of discussion about what dice are worth the most BP over on the discord server.

Yes, without a special icon on the weapon (slug, etc) "The Wrenches, They Do Nothing..."

Also, as far as I know on offense a double miss is the same as a standard miss in game terms. I
guess if you are Role Playing, then you can describe it more spectacularly (it still won't do anything different though).

[beetle496]

I don’t think I will be joining Discord anytime soon. But of all the Social Media, it is the only one that seems attractive. I swore off SM after Geo Cities went away!

Here is what I get for mean dice values for Slug weapons:
R: 0.3333
Y: 0.8333
G: 0.8333
B: 0.5
K: 0.1667
W: 0.5

Here is what I get for mean dice values for Shred/Fire weapons, where Wrench==1star:
R: 0.5
Y: 0.8333
G: 1.1667
B: 0.5
K: 0.8333
W: 1.0

FWIW, it does not look like the SJG forums support tables. If it did, I would provide more context.

[WTFGamer]

Good thread. So far I've play 1 and 3/4 games. I'm just starting to look beyond the pre-builts. The difference between flame and explosive damage are pretty stark. Flame will cost you either 2 control per next turn or a point of damage per side they affect. Explosions cost immediate control which can be less than stunning as pointed out by Magesmiley. I'm never in favor of homebrewing solutions early in a game's debut. But this might be a good place to theory craft for later. What if explosion effects cost you future control you plan to pick up next turn? Keep nearly everything the same. Just shift that first [Boom] result per explosive weapon to an unblockable reduction in the next turn's control? That would simulate being rocked by a rocket and make you think twice about hitting the gas.

[NexusGameTheory]

I have also been thinking about this.

An approach that focuses on "fun and hilarity" at the table, less so on clear game balance (testing needed) was to have explosions cause an immediate spinning out roll.

And instead of the "severity" of the spinout being based on the number of unpaid skid results, it is based on the number of Wrenches on the attack roll.

So rolling more wrenches on an explosion weapon increases the spinout effect.

This causes weird and uncontrolled movement on the battlefield that has to be dealt with. It is not more damage, which could be boring. It is different than fire or tire damage and at the same time, causes tactical chaos and seems in line with the fantasy of an "explosion".

At least for now, half the explosions are "one-shot" rockets. Meaning that they are not affecting play that significantly.

The only remaining multi-use explosion weapons are the 6-Hammerhead, which can roll at MOST 1 wrench. The second 8-Linked Hammerheads, can roll at most 3 wrenches.

So the maximum severity of these "explosion" spinouts seems pretty limited.

Now the player being hit has to take into account this new direction of their vehicle as they go into next round.

So a couple of quick questions:
1) Does this look fun and relatively easy?
2) Have I missed something that makes this game-breaking?
3) Anyone in a position to test this?

Thanks!

[WTFGamer]

Originally Posted by NexusGameTheory

And instead of the "severity" of the spinout being based on the number of unpaid skid results, it is based on the number of Wrenches on the attack roll.

So rolling more wrenches on an explosion weapon increases the spinout effect.

That's a neat idea. So 1 wrench would cause a D1 skid on the opposite arc of the side hit? And multiple wrenches would increase the D level? Does this cause tire damage unless the driver has control he/she can spend to negate? What if the arc is front or back? Roll a blue die to determine which way? Would a front hit pivot the front and a back hit dovetail the rear?

I'll give it a whirl and combine it with the future control loss I suggested above. I think it might be a neat way to give some extra beef to these one shot weapons. For science.

I'm sure the designers are rolling their eyes at what amounts to cluttering up the clean system they've devised. The biggest issue seems to be ensuring people take Ace tokens before reaching for maneuver dice. Something we need to train ourselves to do, because the call to pivot, roll, and resolve is so strong. The excitement of resolving the result wipes from short term memory the need to pick up that token.

[beetle496]

I have hardly watched the videos. Do none of them feature rockets or other blast weapons?

Seems like there was a lot a play testing, and Covid gave an extra year of demos at cons (well, fewer cons, but more time still). How could it be the case that it didn’t come up that Wrenches for explosion damage was essentially “no effect”?

[Philip Villarreal]

Here's some insight from Sam/Randy

"Blast weapons are unique because they are ALWAYS either too weak or too strong, with little in-between.

If a control loss can't put your opponent in immediate jeopardy, you will be underwhelmed with the effect of a blast weapon.

Stripping away your opponent's last control token so your second shot rips through their defenseless chassis transforms even a low-cost blast weapon into something massively potent.

When we tested a stronger explosion effect, it created The One True Way to play. All car builds centered around blast weapons, and with no real counter-play besides driving slowly and taking fewer maneuvers (to retain control tokens), the fun was sucked out of combat AND movement.

Thankfully, if you don't think they are worth the BP, you are left with a ton of other options. Try a different type of weapon that better fits your playstyle and the game format you are in. And you are obviously free to house rule things as you see fit — we just want you to have fun with the game.

- - -

Here is a Car Wars story Randy and I hear a LOT:

"I once built a car so awesome that I obliterated everyone in my first turn! It was the greatest arena battle ever, and they didn't even get to shoot! [deep sigh] For some reason, I just can't seem to get the game to the table anymore."

In a game intended to be accessible to a broad player base, we felt that stronger blast weapons broke our "fun for one" rule (where a gameplay element is fun to use, but miserable when it's used on you). We feel "fun for one" is only acceptable in games with extremely short play length, or else your opponents will not be interested in playing again.

Stronger blast weapons crossed our "fun for one" threshold, but they might not for your group."