What RPG has the best spaceship design system?

[Michael Thayne]

I've looked at a lot of RPG spaceship design systems, and have never been quite satisfied with any of them—particularly when it comes to the handling of space combat. I'm coming at this from a position of not minding complexity much, but being deeply annoyed by things that make no in-universe sense. Here are the systems I'm familiar with:

• GURPS Vehicles 3rd edition. Like I said, I don't mind the complexity, but in spite of all the attention to realism, there are some definite wonk elements, like the laser rules.
• GURPS Spaceships 4th edition: has a lot going for it, but the lack of support for custom missiles/drones less than 10 tons (and the fact this decision wasn't wholly arbitary—which becomes apparent when you try to home-brew a fix) is a real problem. The limited choice of hulltonnages also isn't ideal, though IMHO not as bad as the hard lower limit.
• GURPS Transhuman Space Classic: being specific to one setting has major benefits to the point that I struggle to point to any really fatal flaws, but it is very setting-specific and the range of what you can do is limited in some ways.
• Classic Traveller: a major influence on probably every subsequent sci-fi RPG, but it's hard to get something right when you are the first person doing it ever, and it shows. Numerous tables that almost follow a pattern but don't, and IIRC other wonkiness.
• Alternity: For those who don't know, Alternity was a short-lived RPG by TSR whose setting got recycled as d20 Future. Actually my first sci-fi RPG ever, and the source of my handle on these forums (my real name isn't Michael!) I don't actually remember much about the spaceship design system, except that in retrospect the Traveller influence is obvious, and unfortunately the core mechanic (for the entire game, not just space combat!) is pretty wonky.
• Squadron Strike: technically a tabletop wargame, I mention it here because I really respect the author, Ken Burnside. Unfortunately, IIUC the ship design rules are so complicated they exist only in spreadsheet form, and I'm not sure the ship point costs are meant to be economically meaningful rather than a game balance mechanism.

I suspect the thing I want is a more recent edition of Traveller, or maybe 2300 AD, but I don't want to plunk down $50+ on anything before soliciting some opinions. Note that I already understand Traveller 5 is quite complex, and while that isn't necessarily a deal-breaker for me I know it can be hard to make every part of a really complicated game work together with every other part in the intended manner, which is probably the biggest reason I haven't bought it yet.

[Michael Thayne]

Oh god I meant to post this in "Roleplaying in General" can a mod please move it rather than just deleting it?

[David Johansen]

I quite like Spacemaster Privateers but the book is full of errors and stuff. Still it's a decent variation on build a box and put stuff in it. It's one of those, not quite as complex and detailed can be a good thing situations.

Traveller the New Era's Fire Fusion and Steel is really good.

BRTC's Vehicles is excellent, of course.

I've designed a couple systems of my own but I'm not here to spam the board.

[Michael Thayne]

Reading reviews of Fire, Fusion, & Steel, I'm reminded of another reason I'm dissatisfied with Traveller—assumptions about computers that are stuck in the 1980s. But BTRC's books (I assume BRTC is a typo) look interesting, would you recommend starting with CORPS VDS or EABA Stuff!?

[Refplace]

It was a board game but I quite liked Starfire.

[thrash]

Jovian Chronicles has a nice inversion of the "put stuff in a box" model. You choose the capabilities first, then calculate the size of the box it takes to fit it all. There's no explicit power budget, for example, because "competent engineers would make sure the power is sufficient." Their delta-V calculations look odd, but are actually realistic.

There's also something to be said for the simplicity of Warp War, if the tech assumptions match your setting. I've often thought there's a great game to be had by combining Warp War ships, shipbuilding, and combat with the setting and map from The Company War, which models CJ Cherryh's Alliance/Union universe.

I cribbed a lot of the boats in the Serenity roleplaying game from real-world aircraft, suitably jazzed up for the setting. The rules were sort of empirically derived from those benchmarks.

[Michael Thayne]

Originally Posted by David Johansen

I quite like Spacemaster Privateers but the book is full of errors and stuff. Still it's a decent variation on build a box and put stuff in it. It's one of those, not quite as complex and detailed can be a good thing situations.

Traveller the New Era's Fire Fusion and Steel is really good.

BRTC's Vehicles is excellent, of course.

I've designed a couple systems of my own but I'm not here to spam the board.

I'm leaning towards picking up more BTRC books, unsure if my next purposes should be more CORPS books (including Guns, Guns, Guns!) or if I should grab Slag!, which purports to be a self-contained space combat game adaptable for any fictional universe.

[ak_aramis]

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

I've looked at a lot of RPG spaceship design systems, and have never been quite satisfied with any of them—particularly when it comes to the handling of space combat. I'm coming at this from a position of not minding complexity much, but being deeply annoyed by things that make no in-universe sense. Here are the systems I'm familiar with:

• GURPS Vehicles 3rd edition. Like I said, I don't mind the complexity, but in spite of all the attention to realism, there are some definite wonk elements, like the laser rules.
• GURPS Spaceships 4th edition: has a lot going for it, but the lack of support for custom missiles/drones less than 10 tons (and the fact this decision wasn't wholly arbitary—which becomes apparent when you try to home-brew a fix) is a real problem. The limited choice of hulltonnages also isn't ideal, though IMHO not as bad as the hard lower limit.
• GURPS Transhuman Space Classic: being specific to one setting has major benefits to the point that I struggle to point to any really fatal flaws, but it is very setting-specific and the range of what you can do is limited in some ways.
• Classic Traveller: a major influence on probably every subsequent sci-fi RPG, but it's hard to get something right when you are the first person doing it ever, and it shows. Numerous tables that almost follow a pattern but don't, and IIRC other wonkiness.
• Alternity: For those who don't know, Alternity was a short-lived RPG by TSR whose setting got recycled as d20 Future. Actually my first sci-fi RPG ever, and the source of my handle on these forums (my real name isn't Michael!) I don't actually remember much about the spaceship design system, except that in retrospect the Traveller influence is obvious, and unfortunately the core mechanic (for the entire game, not just space combat!) is pretty wonky.
• Squadron Strike: technically a tabletop wargame, I mention it here because I really respect the author, Ken Burnside. Unfortunately, IIUC the ship design rules are so complicated they exist only in spreadsheet form, and I'm not sure the ship point costs are meant to be economically meaningful rather than a game balance mechanism.

I suspect the thing I want is a more recent edition of Traveller, or maybe 2300 AD, but I don't want to plunk down $50+ on anything before soliciting some opinions. Note that I already understand Traveller 5 is quite complex, and while that isn't necessarily a deal-breaker for me I know it can be hard to make every part of a really complicated game work together with every other part in the intended manner, which is probably the biggest reason I haven't bought it yet.

A couple more that are less complex but still well grounded:
CORPS VDS (for CORPS 2e). It's easier to work than GV, and just a bit less realistic, but avoids flavoring the futuretech with specific labels, unlike G:V. Back in the 00's, I designed an SSTO suing VDS... it had the correct lack of payload that a pre-fusion rocket should have... and was sized similarly to the Starship+Booster stack.

EABA Stuff - same basic concepts as CORPS VDS, and same author, but a number of years later. Streamlined the process a bit, too. And for EABA, not CORPS...

If one can accept Fusion and an FTL as acceptable handwavium, the Albedo Ship Sourcebook is probably the most realistic RPG supplement for the N-space side of space ships I've seen. And, appropriately, starship battles are won or lost on the programming beforehand, since no biological can react fast enough. Fusion Torch for a couple days in/out, with near instant jumps, conflicts between ships will be single pass, and put as much stuff in their way as one can for the insane KE dump on impact... explosives become redundant at that point.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by ak_aramis

conflicts between ships will be single pass, and put as much stuff in their way as one can for the insane KE dump on impact... explosives become redundant at that point.

Gurps Spaceships cals this a "fast pass" and it is indeed a major (or _the_major) form of ship engagements in hard science universes. Spaceships jsut handles other stuff too.

[Michael Thayne]

Originally Posted by ak_aramis

A couple more that are less complex but still well grounded:
CORPS VDS (for CORPS 2e). It's easier to work than GV, and just a bit less realistic, but avoids flavoring the futuretech with specific labels, unlike G:V. Back in the 00's, I designed an SSTO suing VDS... it had the correct lack of payload that a pre-fusion rocket should have... and was sized similarly to the Starship+Booster stack.

EABA Stuff - same basic concepts as CORPS VDS, and same author, but a number of years later. Streamlined the process a bit, too. And for EABA, not CORPS...

If one can accept Fusion and an FTL as acceptable handwavium, the Albedo Ship Sourcebook is probably the most realistic RPG supplement for the N-space side of space ships I've seen. And, appropriately, starship battles are won or lost on the programming beforehand, since no biological can react fast enough. Fusion Torch for a couple days in/out, with near instant jumps, conflicts between ships will be single pass, and put as much stuff in their way as one can for the insane KE dump on impact... explosives become redundant at that point.

Hmmm, might check out Albedo, that's the RPG of Albedo Anthrophorphics, right? I remember the Atomic Rockets website had good things to say about that.

I've already checked out CORPS VDS, but was turned off by the worked example of how to build a fission thermal rocket—the Isp is roughly correct but it's calculated based on two AFAICT totally meaningless numbers; I also suspect it would require the rocket to get a resupply of fissionables more often than would actually be necessary in real life.