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Old 03-26-2017, 08:44 AM   #1361
Flyndaran
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Default Re: [Supers] GURPS Unofficial Handbook to the Marvel Universe, Reboot Edition

I can't imagine why those willing to kill, poison, persecute, and permanently intern "differently abled" people would have any problem mutilating by removing "extra" limbs.
If anything, those nuts would see that as an even better solution to their wrongness than drugs.
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Old 03-26-2017, 09:17 PM   #1362
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Default Re: [Supers] GURPS Unofficial Handbook to the Marvel Universe, Reboot Edition

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Originally Posted by Flyndaran View Post
I can't imagine why those willing to kill, poison, persecute, and permanently intern "differently abled" people would have any problem mutilating by removing "extra" limbs.
If anything, those nuts would see that as an even better solution to their wrongness than drugs.
Yeah, but those nuts are a scant minority, perhaps even less common than mutants. I ain't Phantasm, but one of the things that attracted me to his work is we share a common disdain for how Marvel has handled certain things. You don't have to believe me, however; just check out the first post of this very thread. I had to look at it again anyway; I think I referenced the Celestials as the ultimate source of most superpowers (at least on Earth and many other worlds), forgetting that while it was true of one take on the MU, it was specifically not an option here as Phantasm stated clearly "No Celestials".

We are mostly discussing Squelch as something being administered to those resisting arrest, under arrest, or flat out in prison. Even if we go to countries that don't respect human rights (real or native to only the MU), odds are any such super-powered-beings under their sway will be seen as vital resources. We can discuss its potential medicinal usage, where there may be room for more abuse... but even then it is still the same kind of gross abuse of power seen in real world medicine. Abuse that is much more difficult (though not impossible) in a modern setting. The worst case scenario, bad though it may be, for most is going to be counselors and family pressuring someone to have something done about their "condition"... as opposed to the local sheriff (let alone a federal task force) hunting them down, locking them up, and "curing" them.
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Old 03-27-2017, 01:56 PM   #1363
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Default Re: [Supers] GURPS Unofficial Handbook to the Marvel Universe, Reboot Edition

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Originally Posted by Flyndaran View Post
I can't imagine why those willing to kill, poison, persecute, and permanently intern "differently abled" people would have any problem mutilating by removing "extra" limbs.
If anything, those nuts would see that as an even better solution to their wrongness than drugs.
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Originally Posted by Otaku View Post
Yeah, but those nuts are a scant minority, perhaps even less common than mutants. I ain't Phantasm, but one of the things that attracted me to his work is we share a common disdain for how Marvel has handled certain things. You don't have to believe me, however; just check out the first post of this very thread. I had to look at it again anyway; I think I referenced the Celestials as the ultimate source of most superpowers (at least on Earth and many other worlds), forgetting that while it was true of one take on the MU, it was specifically not an option here as Phantasm stated clearly "No Celestials".

We are mostly discussing Squelch as something being administered to those resisting arrest, under arrest, or flat out in prison. Even if we go to countries that don't respect human rights (real or native to only the MU), odds are any such super-powered-beings under their sway will be seen as vital resources. We can discuss its potential medicinal usage, where there may be room for more abuse... but even then it is still the same kind of gross abuse of power seen in real world medicine. Abuse that is much more difficult (though not impossible) in a modern setting. The worst case scenario, bad though it may be, for most is going to be counselors and family pressuring someone to have something done about their "condition"... as opposed to the local sheriff (let alone a federal task force) hunting them down, locking them up, and "curing" them.
I wanted to address this, as it seems that some people are again treating this as a representation of "modern" Marvel, whereas I'm trying to stay true to its late-Silver and early-Bronze Age roots with a whole new timeline. (And Otaku, I'll forgive you on the Celestials; I'm actually wavering on them lately, but my "no Eternals or Deviants" ruling is remaining solid.) Basically, we shouldn't take folks like Gyrich as being representative of any government agency in the Western world. (Outside the Western CF, though, that's another story, probably best handled on a nation-by-nation basis.)

Also, Squelch isn't intended to be a "cure", as its effects fade over time (and being a pharmaceutical, tolerances can be built up with long-time usage).

From the very first post:
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First: Mutants can be detected as being different from normal humans via superscience scanners, even if those mutations result in abilities that would be considered "wild" in other settings (such as wings or a sixth finger on each hand). Mutants, however, are accepted as a minority, but still suffer from some inequality, real and perceived. (No more or less than all other minorities, for the record.) There is no outcry against the "Mutant Menace".
Emphasis added. This part needs to be remembered. I've always found the "hated and feared for existing" bit to be handled way too anviliciious in Marveldom for my tastes, especially after Claremont left the X-books, but even in the last five or so years of his 15-year run on Uncanny X-Men it got fairly bad (probably by editor decree). It's only gotten worse.

Please remember that I am not trying to write a GRIMDARK! setting; in fact, GRIMDARK! is something I'm trying to avoid like the plague.

Assume that there have been at least three waves of superhumans in the past since WWII (including the wartime and post-war supers of the Invaders, Liberty Legion, and All-Winners Squad), which means that there has been incentive to invent technologies and pharmaceuticals to temporarily neutralize powers. (Tech to permanently remove such powers probably exist, but aren't "common" technologies, which is what that post was attempting to cover.)

From a gaming standpoint, would you rather have your PCs when arrested given a dose of a drug to temporarily remove their Super ST and DR for the duration of the imprisonment arc, or one that would permanently remove it from their character sheet? I'd rather have the former, so as to not screw my players over.
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The GURPS Marvel Universe Reboot Project A-G, H-R, and S-Z, and its not-a-wiki-really web adaptation.
Ranoc, a Muskets-and-Magery Renaissance Fantasy Setting

Last edited by Phantasm; 03-27-2017 at 04:38 PM.
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Old 03-27-2017, 06:32 PM   #1364
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Default Re: [Supers] GURPS Unofficial Handbook to the Marvel Universe, Reboot Edition

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From a gaming standpoint, would you rather have your PCs when arrested given a dose of a drug to temporarily remove their Super ST and DR for the duration of the imprisonment arc, or one that would permanently remove it from their character sheet? I'd rather have the former, so as to not screw my players over.
Depends on the type of game I'm running. I would never 'steal' a players points, period. So if I took there Super ST and DR away via horrific mutilation or effectively being chemically super-castrated they are going to get those points back, just in what I deem a story appropriate way.

If the drug is unstable then there mutant DNA rebels against being suppressed once its out of there system. Or if removed via mutiliation the stress causes them to regenerate- there muscles and Armour don't grow back as thick, but now they have regrowth and regeneration.

Or there powers become mental, they loose the physical side only to be pushed into a more mental or astral side- the mutant part of them will not be suppressed, crush the body and the soul will find its way free.

So when it comes to side effects from squelch, I'd err towards chaos: If carefully administered, along with anti-depressants and careful mood control, low stress environments, and a lot of psychological counseling- it works, though they build up resistance over time. It works enough that a kindly kept mutant prisoner can serve out a life sentence.

The existing american prisons would be too harsh, but something like a Norwegian prison along with regular squelch injections would work fine.[1]

Use it without taking the person's health into consideration, use it in a high stress enviornment, or even worse use it as part of a campaign of fear and torture, and you'll see resistance build up super-fast, not only that but it will spur NEW more powerful and unpredictable mutations, along with likely unhinging the poor mutants psyce in the process.

This would seem to make sense to me as most mutant powers manifest through a combination of puberty (really a session of extended stress and bodily changes) and traumatic events (phsycial/mental stress)

Basically using squelch in anything but a placid rehabilitation center is basically building a bomb. Unhinged mutants can go to an asylum and be treated for their mental illness while on squelch, prisoners can be kept in cages on squelch. Mutants cannot be mistreated on squelch.


[1]http://www.businessinsider.com/why-norways-prison-system-is-so-successful-2014-12
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Old 03-28-2017, 09:56 AM   #1365
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Default Re: [Supers] GURPS Unofficial Handbook to the Marvel Universe, Reboot Edition

Going over a few things, I see some confusion from people as to whether a Mutant would be affected by Squelch. It seems folks are assuming Squelch will affect them to remove their powers. My working assumption when creating the drug for this project is "no, it does not". Please peruse the following power modifiers from the second post of this thread:
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Biological (-10%): These abilities are part of the character's physiology, but may be negated through the application of drugs geared specifically for such purpose (-5%). Active abilities always require an additional 1 FP to use (-5%), but see Passive Biological, below.

Chemical (-10%): These abilities are dependent upon some form of chemical/alchemical potion being applied to the body on a regular basis, whether through ingestion, inhalation, or injection. This potion is the equivalent of Maintenance (One Person; Weekly) (-5%). In addition, the effects of the potion can be counteracted through other pharmaceutical means, same as the Passive Biological power modifier, below (-5%).

Mutant (-10%): The character is a mutant whose abilities can be negated through Anti-Mutant abilities such as Neutralize and Static (-5%) or through technological means (-5%). This is a subset of the Super power modifier, so any Anti-Super abilities will also negate the mutant powers, but the reverse is not necessarily true.

Mutant Biology (-0%): The character is a mutant, and can be detected as such. However, the abilities granted by this Power are physical adaptations which cannot be removed except through surgery (usually amputation of limbs), and are nearly indistinguishable from "wild" abilities. Because of this, there is no value to the modifier.

Passive Biological (-5%): Like Biological above, these abilities are part of the character's physiology, but may be negated through the application of drugs geared specifically for such purpose (-5%). As these abilities are passive in nature, no FP expenditure is necessary.
Squelch is intended to be one of the "drugs geared specifically for such purpose" in Biological, Chemical, and Passive Biological; note that Mutant Biology - the power modifier given to Angel for his wings and Beast for his hand-like feet - is a "no countermeasures" power modifier.

I do not approach Squelch as a "technological" countermeasure; it was meant to fill in the holes in prison security made by having the technological countermeasures affecting Super, Mutant, Psionic, and Mutant Psionic, but not Biological, Chemical, or Passive Biological.

So in short, Squelch is not intended to affect nor should it in game terms affect a Mutant.

Clear as mud?
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The GURPS Marvel Universe Reboot Project A-G, H-R, and S-Z, and its not-a-wiki-really web adaptation.
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Old 03-28-2017, 11:28 AM   #1366
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Default Re: [Supers] GURPS Unofficial Handbook to the Marvel Universe, Reboot Edition

So how do you differentiate between drug countermeasures and technological countermeasures? Or is this just an instance where one tech stops one power modifier, but not necessarily another?
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Old 03-28-2017, 11:41 AM   #1367
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Default Re: [Supers] GURPS Unofficial Handbook to the Marvel Universe, Reboot Edition

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So how do you differentiate between drug countermeasures and technological countermeasures? Or is this just an instance where one tech stops one power modifier, but not necessarily another?
I'm looking at it though the lens of "anti-power technology" falling into the "Engineer/Electronics Repair (or Mechanic)/Electronics Operation" skill triangle, while "anti-power pharmaceuticals" fall under the "Chemistry or Biology (Biochemistry)/Pharmacy/Physician" skill triangle. So yes, in essence, one tech affects one power modifier but not necessarily another.

I think I've got enough to give a more detailed write-up for Squelch, though, with short and long-term side effects and time to affect the character by delivery type (pills of course take longer to take effect than an injection or inhalation, and inhalation takes a bit longer than injection ... but of course for some folks - like Luke Cage - injection is not an option). Thanks, y'all.
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The GURPS Marvel Universe Reboot Project A-G, H-R, and S-Z, and its not-a-wiki-really web adaptation.
Ranoc, a Muskets-and-Magery Renaissance Fantasy Setting
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Old 03-28-2017, 11:03 PM   #1368
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Default Re: [Supers] GURPS Unofficial Handbook to the Marvel Universe, Reboot Edition

I'm somewhat confused about Mutant Biological (-0%) versus the other biological power modifiers. So Griffin's wings, which are not mutant in origin, can be negated via a targeted drug, but Angel's mutant wings are unaffected by a different targeted drug? Fin Fang Foom's wings, natural to his species, also affected. Pixie's mutant wings unaffected.
I would lump them in with the other biologicals, either passive or active, as "wild" powers become a get out of jail free card with no vulnerability. Sure, it's silly for prehensile feet to stop working in some electromagnetic mutant-power-dampening field, but it's also silly that "top men" can't figure out a nerve deadening balm, local-site paralytic, or other means of stopping a mutant's wings from flapping.
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Old 03-29-2017, 02:59 AM   #1369
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Default Re: [Supers] GURPS Unofficial Handbook to the Marvel Universe, Reboot Edition

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I'm somewhat confused about Mutant Biological (-0%) versus the other biological power modifiers. So Griffin's wings, which are not mutant in origin, can be negated via a targeted drug, but Angel's mutant wings are unaffected by a different targeted drug? Fin Fang Foom's wings, natural to his species, also affected. Pixie's mutant wings unaffected.
I would lump them in with the other biologicals, either passive or active, as "wild" powers become a get out of jail free card with no vulnerability. Sure, it's silly for prehensile feet to stop working in some electromagnetic mutant-power-dampening field, but it's also silly that "top men" can't figure out a nerve deadening balm, local-site paralytic, or other means of stopping a mutant's wings from flapping.
Griffin's wings (and claws) are likely to be a similar -0% power modifier (once I add him in Herc's cast), since the power modifier also lets you add the Power Talent to the skills (in his case, Flight, Aerobatics, Brawling, and potentially Mount) used with the abilities. Fin Fang Foom and Pixie would be in the same boat, same with Bird-Boy/Bird-Brain and most other "winged" characters you can name. If Griffin's wings are not given a similar -0% power modifier, they may not be given a power modifier at all. (What made you think I'd be adding a Biological or Passive Biological power modifier to Griffin or Fin Fang Foom? Just because they're not mutants?)

There is little difference in practice between a "wild" ability and a -0% power modifier ability. A topical paralytic poison would work just as well on a regular person's arm or leg as it would a mutant's or mutate's wing; I treat "affected by topical nerve deadening paralytics" as a 0-point feature. Binding their wings in a net works just as well as binding a regular person without wings in the same net; again, 0-point feature. Don't overthink such things.

That help?
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"But mom, I don't wanna go back in the dungeon!"

The GURPS Marvel Universe Reboot Project A-G, H-R, and S-Z, and its not-a-wiki-really web adaptation.
Ranoc, a Muskets-and-Magery Renaissance Fantasy Setting

Last edited by Phantasm; 03-30-2017 at 10:43 AM.
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Old 03-30-2017, 08:59 AM   #1370
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Default Re: [Supers] GURPS Unofficial Handbook to the Marvel Universe, Reboot Edition

The difference, I think, with mutant biology abilities is that they aren't affected by anti-mutant countermeasures the way mutant abilities are. Not that they aren't affected by stuff that would affect normal biology.
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