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Old 06-08-2020, 07:14 AM   #11
Anders
 
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Default Re: Small creatures grappling

You could check out Dungeon Fantasy Grappling. It's a more mature system by Douglas Cole, and fully GURPS-compatible.
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Old 06-08-2020, 07:22 AM   #12
geppo_68
 
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Default Re: Small creatures grappling

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Originally Posted by cdru View Post
For rules on multiple grapplers combining efforts, check Multiple Close Combat on Page 392
thanks i already checked them, but they are not quite right for the situation i am trying to describe, that is small creatures against normal humans.

First, I guess the the number of small creatures eligible to grapple at the same time should be greater than in the normal grappling rules and should be a function of how small they are.
So the first question is: could the community suggests me an house rule?
The same should be for taking down and pinning: higher number acting together when they get smaller.

Second, I guess that the dexterity malus for being grappled (maximum -4)should be inversely proportional to the negative size mod (a small creature impair me less) and proportional to the number of critters (a large number of them will give me the full -4 malus)
Again, someone could share with me some suggestions?

Thanks!!
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Old 06-08-2020, 07:49 AM   #13
WingedKagouti
 
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Default Re: Small creatures grappling

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Originally Posted by geppo_68 View Post
Second, I guess that the dexterity malus for being grappled (maximum -4)should be inversely proportional to the negative size mod (a small creature impair me less) and proportional to the number of critters (a large number of them will give me the full -4 malus)
Again, someone could share with me some suggestions?

Thanks!!
I'd say that a single housecat successfully grappling a limb will give actions with that limb the full penality. An average housecat weighs around the same as (if not more than) the average arm of a 150-160 lbs human, so doubling the amount of weight you have to move is certainly going to impact how well you can coordinate things. And while legs have more mass, anything that unevenly disrupts the mobility and alters the weight distribution can have a large impact on balance and agility.

Still, any normal cat grappling any limb is unlikely to be still and just try to immobilize the target. There'll be kicking, biting and scratching going on as well.
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Old 06-08-2020, 07:52 AM   #14
Kromm
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Default Re: Small creatures grappling

Multiple grapplers working together count as a single grappler with higher effective ST and DX. The plain-vanilla, no-house-rules version is found on p. B392:
Use the ST, DX, or grappling skill of the attacker with the best score, and add 1/5 (round down) of the score of each of his helpers.
A herd of housecats with ST 4, DX 14 would need nine members to be a match for a ST 10 human: ST = 4 + (4 + 4 + 4 + 4 + 4 + 4 + 4 + 4)/5. They would have a ridiculous effective DX of 36 (although my experience is that even four cats have DX 50 or something . . .).

The unanswered question is "How many?" The rule on p. B392 – which says two in a takedown, three in a pin – contains the unwritten assumption that the grapplers have the same SM. If you feel linear dimension is what matters, then multiply the number of SM -3 cats vs. an SM 0 human by (dimension of humans/dimension of cats), or by a factor of three (six in a takedown, nine in a pin); if you feel area is what matters, go ahead and square that, for a factor of nine (18 in a takedown, 27 in a pin).

I lean toward linear here, because it's a question of leverage more than body coverage. So that's six cats (effective ST 8, DX 28) or nine cats (effective ST 10, DX 36) vs. a human. But they still count as a single grappler, giving one instance of the DX penalty, and attempting one takedown or pin.

The net effect is that someone beset by cats has -4 to DX whether that's one cat or a horde. Given that takedowns use the highest of ST, DX, or grappling skill, the cats with their effective DX 28 are all but guaranteed a takedown. But given how pins work, they're very unlikely to achieve a pin; I'd give the human +9 for a three-point SM difference, no matter how many cats there are, but also give the cats the +3 for more free hands (claws, mouths, etc.), so that's 13 for the cats vs. 19 for the human.

That seems to reality check moderately well: A herd of cats is an incredible nuisance (-4 to DX) and can trip you (takedown), but isn't likely to keep you from going anywere. You'd need your own weight in cats for that, which is more cats than could fit.
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Old 06-08-2020, 09:06 AM   #15
geppo_68
 
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Default Re: Small creatures grappling

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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
Multiple grapplers working together count as a single grappler with higher effective ST and DX. The plain-vanilla, no-house-rules version is found on p. B392:
Use the ST, DX, or grappling skill of the attacker with the best score, and add 1/5 (round down) of the score of each of his helpers.
A herd of housecats with ST 4, DX 14 would need nine members to be a match for a ST 10 human: ST = 4 + (4 + 4 + 4 + 4 + 4 + 4 + 4 + 4)/5. They would have a ridiculous effective DX of 36 (although my experience is that even four cats have DX 50 or something . . .).

The unanswered question is "How many?" The rule on p. B392 – which says two in a takedown, three in a pin – contains the unwritten assumption that the grapplers have the same SM. If you feel linear dimension is what matters, then multiply the number of SM -3 cats vs. an SM 0 human by (dimension of humans/dimension of cats), or by a factor of three (six in a takedown, nine in a pin); if you feel area is what matters, go ahead and square that, for a factor of nine (18 in a takedown, 27 in a pin).

I lean toward linear here, because it's a question of leverage more than body coverage. So that's six cats (effective ST 8, DX 28) or nine cats (effective ST 10, DX 36) vs. a human. But they still count as a single grappler, giving one instance of the DX penalty, and attempting one takedown or pin.

The net effect is that someone beset by cats has -4 to DX whether that's one cat or a horde. Given that takedowns use the highest of ST, DX, or grappling skill, the cats with their effective DX 28 are all but guaranteed a takedown. But given how pins work, they're very unlikely to achieve a pin; I'd give the human +9 for a three-point SM difference, no matter how many cats there are, but also give the cats the +3 for more free hands (claws, mouths, etc.), so that's 13 for the cats vs. 19 for the human.

That seems to reality check moderately well: A herd of cats is an incredible nuisance (-4 to DX) and can trip you (takedown), but isn't likely to keep you from going anywere. You'd need your own weight in cats for that, which is more cats than could fit.
Ok so a more general rule could be be:
1. a bunch of n grappling critters of size -X with DXy and STz are transformed to an equivalent opponent of DX' and ST' calculated withe the normal rules for cumulative grappling opponents.
2. a total of 2* Delta Size difference could be involved in grappling/ takedown and a total of 3* Delta Size difference in a pin.
3. in the pin I give to the bigger contender a bonus of 3*Delta size difference and to the horde a flat +3 bonus for "multiple arms"

It remains the question of the DX malus...I agree that the critters could pile up and enforce the full penalty of -4..but how many of them should they be?
Could I say that if the total ST' equivalent is < 1/2 of the grappled ST then the malus is only -2? Or something along these lines?
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Old 06-08-2020, 09:29 AM   #16
Kromm
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Default Re: Small creatures grappling

I'd say it's always -4. The question is how much of you that affects.

I'd limit that to parts with (modifier to hit + target's SM) no bigger than the attacking creature's SM. So for an SM 0 human, with a head at -5 to hit, hands and feet at -4, arms and legs at -2, and a whole person at 0, you'd need an SM -5 creature to inconvenience a head, an SM -4 one to penalize a hand or foot, an SM -2 one to penalize an arm or leg, or an SM 0 one to penalize a whole person. But I'd also treat a whole hex filled with smaller creatures as SM 0 for this purpose.

Thus, one cat might give you -4 to DX when using your head (probably by sitting atop it), hand (by latching on), or foot (perhaps simply by getting underfoot). A herd of cats could give you -4 to DX for all purposes.

A sliding scale would be possible, but sounds like too much math to be fun in a game.
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Old 06-08-2020, 11:37 AM   #17
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Default Re: Small creatures grappling

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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
The unanswered question is "How many?" The rule on p. B392 – which says two in a takedown, three in a pin – contains the unwritten assumption that the grapplers have the same SM. If you feel linear dimension is what matters, then multiply the number of SM -3 cats vs. an SM 0 human by (dimension of humans/dimension of cats), or by a factor of three (six in a takedown, nine in a pin); if you feel area is what matters, go ahead and square that, for a factor of nine (18 in a takedown, 27 in a pin).

I lean toward linear here, because it's a question of leverage more than body coverage. So that's six cats (effective ST 8, DX 28) or nine cats (effective ST 10, DX 36) vs. a human. But they still count as a single grappler, giving one instance of the DX penalty, and attempting one takedown or pin.
Since it's theoretically possible for ten cats to lay claws on a human simultaneously (say 3 per leg, 2 per arm) are these limits more for "the maximum amount able to cooperate to act as a group upon a single hit location" ?
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Old 06-08-2020, 12:22 PM   #18
DouglasCole
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Default Re: Small creatures grappling

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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
A sliding scale would be possible, but sounds like too much math to be fun in a game.
Hey! :-)

FDG uses a sliding scale based on "applied control," and plays pretty smooth. but there's definitely a nice simplicity to grappled/not-grappled being a binary -4 switch
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Old 06-08-2020, 12:29 PM   #19
Anders
 
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Default Re: Small creatures grappling

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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
That seems to reality check moderately well: A herd of cats is an incredible nuisance (-4 to DX) and can trip you (takedown), but isn't likely to keep you from going anywere. You'd need your own weight in cats for that, which is more cats than could fit.
Just moving through a cat-dense area while carrying food should require a DX roll to avoid tripping.
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Old 06-08-2020, 12:33 PM   #20
geppo_68
 
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Default Re: Small creatures grappling

Thanks to all!!
Now I can judge this and similar situations..
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