[LT] Knight field plate harness, three-quarter plate and leg coverage

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Kalzazz

As a note, knee armor makes for far more comfortable crawling than a lack of knee armor

Indeed, thus my notes about poleyns and modern plastic knee protectors.

Knee protection in the form of longer tassets, however, makes for awkwardness during all sorts of tasks. Not riding, though, which is why it was often part of harnesses for mounted warriors who did not prioritise all-terrain capability on foot quite as highly as PCs often do.

[Kalzazz]

Does anyone have a link to or stats on the changes Dan made to Scale, Segmented, and Mail and Plates?

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Kalzazz

Does anyone have a link to or stats on the changes Dan made to Scale, Segmented, and Mail and Plates?

Searching is hard.

I'll copy it from a Word-file instead:

Scale, Light DR3/2(cr) 16lbs.
Scale, Medium DR4/3(cr) 24lbs.
Scale, Heavy DR5 32lbs.
Segmented Plate, Light DR3 12lbs
Segmented Plate, Medium DR4 18lbs
Segmented Plate, Heavy DR5 24lbs

Mail and Plates Cost $1400

[Polydamas]

How does the wearer of this armour expect to fight, and what threats does he expect to face? I'm not sure whether we are talking about your Realms or early modern Europe. I thought that smokepowder weapons were an uncommon threat in your Realms due to cost.

I'm not an expert on early modern armour, and my own harness is just a haubergeon, a gorget, and a bascinet. If comfort is a concern, I would expect no visor before I saw a bracer with no elbow protection. Adding elbow protection can make the armour more comfortable by preventing the armour from sliding down the forearm towards the wrist. I can't think of any historical armour which protected the forearms but not the elbow. I would also expect some hand protection, especially on the bridle hand.

In Europe circa 1600, I think that three-quarter armour normally protected the knees with long tassets and side wings, or at least tall boots with a pistol stuck in each. Something like http://www.myarmoury.com/albums/disp...bum=12&pos=115 or http://www.myarmoury.com/albums/disp...bum=12&pos=134

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Polydamas

How does the wearer of this armour expect to fight, and what threats does he expect to face? I'm not sure whether we are talking about your Realms or early modern Europe. I thought that smokepowder weapons were an uncommon threat in your Realms due to cost.

As an exercise, I was statting one of the numerous examples of late three-quarter-plate of which I've seen pictures. There's a pic of something similar early in the thread. That's very much armour against firearms.

The rules-issue I wanted answered was exemplified by such armour and once I have least coverage realistically possible, it is no problem to add pieces on top of that. Gloves and boots weren't statted as part of it, as that would be individual preference and depend on weather as much as anything else.

I don't expect many people to wear precisely this armour in my Realms, no. But using tassets that don't cover the inner thighs is something I do expect to be common.

As for covering the forearm without covering the elbow, I'm used to TL1+ bracers doing that. It eliminates the need for anything even resembling articulation, by simply not covering any part of the joint.

[Polydamas]

Originally Posted by Icelander

As for covering the forearm without covering the elbow, I'm used to TL1+ bracers doing that. It eliminates the need for anything even resembling articulation, by simply not covering any part of the joint.

Could you show me some examples? The simplest possible forearm armour is just a tube narrow at the wrist and wide at the muscle, with an extension around the elbow. Dead simple, no articulation required beyond what you need to enclose the forearm in the first place, and seen in renaissance long gauntlets and the bazubands of harness in the Persian style.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Polydamas

Could you show me some examples? The simplest possible forearm armour is just a tube narrow at the wrist and wide at the muscle, with an extension around the elbow. Dead simple, no articulation required beyond what you need to enclose the forearm in the first place, and seen in renaissance long gauntlets and the bazubands of harness in the Persian style.

Literally the first example that pops up on the web are leather bracers for archers, which cover only the forearm and which form the page pic of bracer for Wikipedia. Like these. Also, any form of bracelet with strips of arm armour attached. Or two plates attached to each other with strips or over leather.

Anything less sophisticated than articulated plate, really. Something a village smith or even unit tinkerer could turn out from pieces of other armour, without being able to forge nice gear himself. The extension to cover the elbow requires a purpose-designed piece of metal, whereas you can protect just the forearm with literally anything you can hammer slightly into shape.

[Bruno]

The triangular end on of some of those bracers sticks out past your elbow, to provide protection to at least the outside of your elbow at least sometimes.

I'm pretty sure either my bracers or my husbands have that, I'll check when I get home and take a photo if so.

It's not the same as an articulated joint at all though, and the elbow will be exposed at many times from many angles.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Bruno

The triangular end on of some of those bracers sticks out past your elbow, to provide protection to at least the outside of your elbow at least sometimes.

Sure, and that's nice, but it's also probably rather more expensive than the alternative. Also, it's probably inconvenient in a way that a seperate piece to cover your elbow wouldn't be.

Originally Posted by Bruno

I'm pretty sure either my bracers or my husbands have that, I'll check when I get home and take a photo if so.

It's not the same as an articulated joint at all though, and the elbow will be exposed at many times from many angles.

I'd call it partial protection myself and that opens up another complexity issue, and this time one I wasn't actually worrying about.

Can an arm even have (F) protection? Since it's assumed to be moving around? Or would we need to assign it a number on 1d instead?

[Polydamas]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Literally the first example that pops up on the web are leather bracers for archers, which cover only the forearm and which form the page pic of bracer for Wikipedia. Like these. Also, any form of bracelet with strips of arm armour attached. Or two plates attached to each other with strips or over leather.

Anything less sophisticated than articulated plate, really. Something a village smith or even unit tinkerer could turn out from pieces of other armour, without being able to forge nice gear himself. The extension to cover the elbow requires a purpose-designed piece of metal, whereas you can protect just the forearm with literally anything you can hammer slightly into shape.

There are two problems with just googling "bracer": the first is that it will turn up archer's bracers which are not armour, and the second is that it will turn up masses of costume, fantasy, and sports armour often peddled as authentic. The examples in your link are typical fantasy kit, complete with gigantic metal studs.

As you know, the purpose of an archer's bracer was to stop the bowstring from cutting his forearm, so it normally just protected the inside of the wrist. It wasn't worn as armour against weapons, any more than heavy wool and linen clothing was worn as armour. Here is one renaissance example, relatively sturdy but only 12 cm long: http://www.britishmuseum.org/explore...rs_bracer.aspx

Similarly, simple bracers are very popular in costuming, fantasy kit, and sports equipment but almost unheard of historically. Bazubands are so easy to make that people from a SCA background are often shocked to learn that they weren't present in early medieval Europe, because half the early kits on the field have a pair to meet their safety requirements. If there was a lot of armour made by “village smiths or other tinkerers” who couldn't bend a sheet of metal into a trough and close the end smoothly, where are the finds or pictures? What would a “rich mercenary” be doing wearing it?