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Old 06-09-2012, 02:11 AM   #1
Jukkaimaru
 
Join Date: May 2012
Default Bronze Age Greece On A Shoestring Budget

Okay, I've been working out some costs for specific sorts of armor recently. I just did one for a late 1500s Japanese tosei-gusoku set that came out nicely. I then moved on to try to do Greek hoplite kit. I figured I'd lower the cost nicely by using a linothorax (Medium Layered Cloth) for the torso protection and stick to bronze greaves and helmet.

...Turns out that even with the nice inexpensive linothorax, the total cost of the armor is over 6000 GURPS $ (which is around 2000 more than the cost I ended up with for the Japanese armor)!

This seems...not quite right, to me. How would you, dear friends, deal with this in a game where the players were ancient Greek warriors (and thus at a TL that wouldn't likely give them $6000 to easily spend without heavy investment in Wealth)?
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Old 06-09-2012, 02:38 AM   #2
DanHoward
 
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Default Re: Bronze Age Greece On A Shoestring Budget

Greek hoplites are Iron Age. Subtract about 600-800 years for Bronze Age.

I did an early Greek hoplite and a late Greek hoplite for the upcoming Loadouts book. The early one clad all in bronze cost $9,292 but the late one, wearing a leather spolas cost $3,295. The Macedonian in layered linen armour cost $3,464.

If you had a "shoestring" budget then you wouldn't be a hoplite in the first place. You'd be a slave carrying the hoplite's armour until he is ready to put it on.

FWIW there is almost no documentation for Greeks wearing linen armour during the classical period. All of the Greek texts describe other cultures wearing them.

Last edited by DanHoward; 06-09-2012 at 02:48 AM.
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Old 06-09-2012, 02:48 AM   #3
Jukkaimaru
 
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Default Re: Bronze Age Greece On A Shoestring Budget

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Originally Posted by DanHoward View Post
Greek hoplites are Iron Age. Subtract about 800 years for Bronze Age.

I did an early Greek hoplite and a lte Greek hoplite for the upcoming Loadouts book. The early one clad all in Bronze cost $9,292 but the last one using a leather spolas cost $3295. The Macedonian in layered linen armour cost $3,464
Funnily enough I was just looking at the section in Low-Tech talking about that; you're dead right on their society technically being Iron Age but it also mentions a lot of Iron Age societies still used bronze for their armor and gear, so that only really helps slightly.

I guess I'll have to wait for that book and see exactly how you got those lower costs--I take it part of it has to do with not having to pony up for the gigantically expensive bronze Corinthian helm? ;)
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Old 06-09-2012, 02:54 AM   #4
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Default Re: Bronze Age Greece On A Shoestring Budget

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FWIW there is almost no documentation for Greeks wearing linen armour during the classical period. All of the Greek texts describe other cultures wearing them.
Linothoraces are a really, really hot button topic, honestly. I've heard people say exactly what you've said, I've heard others claim there are over 70 primary sources in Greek literature and examples on pottery showing them in use by Greeks. I actually don't really know which to believe; I was just using it to try to drop the price a bit. XDD
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Old 06-09-2012, 02:57 AM   #5
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Default Re: Bronze Age Greece On A Shoestring Budget

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Originally Posted by Jukkaimaru View Post
Funnily enough I was just looking at the section in Low-Tech talking about that; you're dead right on their society technically being Iron Age
Hope so I wrote it :)

Here is a Macedonian phalangite wearing a linen kotthubos and a bronze kausia - pot helm with cheek guards

Chitôn (linen tunic) $48
Kotthubos $263
Ptyruges $38
Knèmides (bronze greaves) $2,200
Sandals $25
Kausia (bronze helmet) $890
TOTAL $3,464
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Old 06-09-2012, 03:00 AM   #6
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Hope so I wrote it :)
Well then! XD

Thanks for the numbers. Is this particular Loadouts book going to be another Low-Tech companion volume, sir?
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Old 06-09-2012, 03:02 AM   #7
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Default Re: Bronze Age Greece On A Shoestring Budget

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Originally Posted by Jukkaimaru View Post
Linothoraces are a really, really hot button topic, honestly. I've heard people say exactly what you've said, I've heard others claim there are over 70 primary sources in Greek literature
There are definitely dozens of references. All but one talks about other cultures wearing it, not Greeks. The last one is ambiguous but IMO it can be used as evidence of Greek usage. FWIW Strabo is the only author in the entire corpus of Greek texts that actually uses the word linothorax. Homer uses linothorex which is an adjective that just means "armoured in linen". Everyone else just calls it "linen armour" (thorakes linoi, etc)

Quote:
and examples on pottery showing them in use by Greeks. I actually don't really know which to believe; I was just using it to try to drop the price a bit. XDD
I'd like someone to show me how they can tell the difference between metal, leather, and linen in a drawing.

Last edited by DanHoward; 05-06-2013 at 02:31 AM.
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Old 06-09-2012, 03:10 AM   #8
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Default Re: Bronze Age Greece On A Shoestring Budget

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There are definitely dozens of references. All but one talks about other cultures wearing it, not Greeks. The last one is ambiguous but IMO it can be used as evidence of Greek usage. FWIW Strabo is the only author in the entire corpus of Greek texts that actually uses the word "linothorax". Homer uses "linothorex" which is a compound noun that just means "armoured in linen".
Iiiiiinteresting. Well, the "70+ sources" figure I was on about comes from a snapshot pic talking about a university team's research into the armor...I want to say it was the University of Wisconsin but I could be wrong. They tested the hell out of their experimental sets, too. It was pretty interesting stuff, but like I said before...the whole thing about it is just this huge hot button that I've seen more than one outburst of internet rage over. XD Only thing that seems to draw more fury is discussions over the nature of Japanese armor.

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I'd like someone show me how they can tell the difference between metal, leather, and linen in a drawing.
Good point. For what it's worth the armors on those pottery pieces really ARE tube and yoke designs that don't look anything like what you typically think of in a Greek cuirass, but it is quite possible they were at least leather if not even metal.
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Old 06-09-2012, 03:15 AM   #9
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Default Re: Bronze Age Greece On A Shoestring Budget

They wasted most of their resources testing glued linen. There isn't a scrap of evidence to suggest that glue was ever historically used by anyone to make armour. Layered textile armour has been used all over the world for thousands of years and there are plenty of surviving examples. Every single one was quilted, not glued.
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Old 06-09-2012, 03:21 AM   #10
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Default Re: Bronze Age Greece On A Shoestring Budget

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Originally Posted by Jukkaimaru View Post
Good point. For what it's worth the armors on those pottery pieces really ARE tube and yoke designs that don't look anything like what you typically think of in a Greek cuirass, but it is quite possible they were at least leather if not even metal.
There was a tube and yoke armour found in Philip's tomb at Vergina made of iron.
http://www.superstock.com/stock-phot...ges/1788-18143
A lot of the illustrations in question could be depicting something like this. I don't think so. IMO leather is most likely, but you can't tell just by looking at drawings.

Last edited by DanHoward; 06-09-2012 at 03:26 AM.
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