Ceremonial Magic GURPS CLASSIC and 4e

[hal]

Rather than continue this on another thread, I thought it best to break this off into its own thread. The point to be debated in this thread, is the validity of using Time for Skill in enchantments - which, well, read on...

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Assuming he started with 1 pt in each he needs 7 more to rise from 12 to 15. OJT divded equally between Enchant and the other spell that 1400 days. If he had 2 pts in Enchant it's 10 pts for that.

This assumes that the "Trading Energy for Skill" dodge works for a Skill-12 Enchnter and my reading is that it would not.

My 1st ed/1st priting copy of Magic for 3e says in the third paragraph under "Enchanting: Creating a Magic Item" that the Enchanter and all assistants must _know_ both Enchant and the spell being put into the item at 15 or higher. Not "be able to cast the spells at an effective level of 15" or other such phrasing.

"Energy for Skill" would come into effect for Enchanting _after_ you knew it at level 15.

Let's go with your statement as given. It is after all, a direct quote of the relevant section.

I underlined the crucial point of your argument, and I will go along with it for the moment, but if what you say is true, then regardless, any mage whose basic skill is 15, can enchant a magic item regardless of any subsequent penalties, because per your argument, it is not "Effective skill" but absolute skill, correct?

Quick and Dirty specifies just the opposite of the implied meaning of "it did not specify effective skill". At a penalty of -1 per extra assistant, plus an additional -1 penalty per HT used in casting your quick and dirty enchantment outright, the moment your effective skill drops below 15, the enchantment becomes impossible.

But wait - Quick and Dirty enchantment is a special case. There would be no other time in which for slow and sure enchantment, which is ceremonial in nature, is ever going to drop the absolute skill below 15 right?

So, a Solitary Aspected Mage, who suffers a -3 penalty to his spell casting, would he be able to engage in slow and sure enchantment with an absolute skill of 15+?

It would seem then, if you answered "No" to the Solitary Aspected mage being able to enchant an item when within 15 of another person - that we're talking about "Effective" skill.

If Magic Item Power is based upon "Effective Skill, then yes, the low mana penalty of making a magic item in a low mana region, and using that magic item in a low mana suffers twice - one for the making of the item, and once for the use of the item in low mana.

But - when you get right down to it? Using Time for Skill, merely requires that a person spend THREE times longer to create a power 20 item in a low mana area. The rules are even spelled out with respect to making magic items that will function in a low mana region as requiring 3x the energy, and is priced at 3x the energy cost to make.

In the end? An absolute reading of the rule is "Must be 15+". But the subsequent rules talk not about absolute skill, but about effective skill.

Your call. You are right to be able to say "but the rules state X" and the actual quote will support you. But everything subsequent to that quote, points not to an absolute skill value, but an effective skill value. Your rendering puts the player in the position of "How do I go from skill X (which is less than 15) to X+1 (which is also less than 15)?" If you can't improve skills with experience points gained through adventuring, and you can't realistically improve a skill you can't succeed at without it reaching a specific value - then how does an IQ 8 student study to reach skill 15?

In all? Improving effective skill to 15 mirrors the criteria that you may not LOWER the effective skill below 15. The criteria simply being "Magic Items require an Effective skill of 15 or they won't succeed."