XP for Unbalanced Races

[Tywyll]

Originally Posted by Rickard

Personally, I always liked the punitive nature of the 2Xs XP. In my mind, it helps keep rare things rare by dissuading too many players from using them. But you can always use 1.5Xs, 1.25Xs, etc., if you think double is too much of a penalty.

I do prefer the simplicity of using a standard flat factor per strong race though (for example gargoyles may be 2Xs XP, lionmen 1.5Xs XP, and hawkmen 1.25Xs XP) rather than basing it on attribute total.

That's what I'm doing, dividing races by 'Tiers'
Tier 1 are humans (30+1d6 points to start)
Tier 2 are Dwarves and Wood Elves (32+1d6) and Faelings (28+1d6, several special abilities and starting talents-my replacement for halflings). They suffer a x1.25
Tier 3 are Star Elves 34+1d6 points, they suffer a x1.5
Tier 4 are Gargoyles, Sun Elves, and other powerful races. They suffer x2 (though I'm considering moving the Sun Elves to x2.5).

[MikMod]

I'm thinking about a system that would take into account three things when you want to know how much xp it would take to raise an attribute:

(1) Your total add so far. This is over and above your 'starting' points. Normal humans start at 30, PCs at 32 points. A 37 point PC would be at +5 in terms of cost. This limits your overall points and slows you down as you get a mature character.

(2) How far advanced your attribute is already. This is on the basis that raising ST from 10 to 11 must be easier than going from 15 to 16, and in order to effectively max out attributes somewhere. I'm thinking that a reasonable 'max' value for most races would be twice the base - so for humans it is going to be very hard (not impossible) to progress past 16 in anything. For a Gobin, their effective max values might be ST 12, DX 16, IQ 20. This will keep a 'race' component to the costs.

(3) Initial character 'shape'. I want to have a way to reflect the fact that Hugor started with ST 13 DX 11 IQ 8. In some way this should shape his natural progress. You might expect a 40pt Hugor to look more like 17-13-10 than 13-13-14. I'm thinking that Hugor's starting stats would permanently make him a +3/+1/-2 character (from 10-10-10) and these would give him bonuses and penalties to improving his stats over his whole life, which will tend to keep him 'in shape'.

I don't have the maths worked out yet. :)

[larsdangly]

I preferred the old way this was done: you start out pretty cool, but take 2x as much XP to advance. Who knows if it twas fair, but in my experience it never led to trouble. And the races were more interesting because they were more strongly different from each other.

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by MikMod

I'm thinking about a system that would take into account three things when you want to know how much xp it would take to raise an attribute:

(1) Your total add so far. This is over and above your 'starting' points. Normal humans start at 30, PCs at 32 points. A 37 point PC would be at +5 in terms of cost. This limits your overall points and slows you down as you get a mature character.

(2) How far advanced your attribute is already. This is on the basis that raising ST from 10 to 11 must be easier than going from 15 to 16, and in order to effectively max out attributes somewhere. I'm thinking that a reasonable 'max' value for most races would be twice the base - so for humans it is going to be very hard (not impossible) to progress past 16 in anything. For a Gobin, their effective max values might be ST 12, DX 16, IQ 20. This will keep a 'race' component to the costs.

(3) Initial character 'shape'. I want to have a way to reflect the fact that Hugor started with ST 13 DX 11 IQ 8. In some way this should shape his natural progress. You might expect a 40pt Hugor to look more like 17-13-10 than 13-13-14. I'm thinking that Hugor's starting stats would permanently make him a +3/+1/-2 character (from 10-10-10) and these would give him bonuses and penalties to improving his stats over his whole life, which will tend to keep him 'in shape'.

I don't have the maths worked out yet. :)

I've been fiddling with developing something very similar to this description. Currently I have characters get a few of their extra starting points as "core" points, which add to their racial minimums to get their base for each attribute. The cost to raise each attribute is then based on how far away they are from their personal base (and their race, especially for races with maximum attribute values).

[MikMod]

Originally Posted by Skarg

I've been fiddling with developing something very similar to this description. Currently I have characters get a few of their extra starting points as "core" points, which add to their racial minimums to get their base for each attribute. The cost to raise each attribute is then based on how far away they are from their personal base (and their race, especially for races with maximum attribute values).

Yep, that sounds good.

It might even be a simple lookup table based on rise over base stat (including character bonus) plus the PCs total added points so far. Though I need to think about the balance to ensure 'maxing' out at 2x base roughly. Not sure a halfling and a lizard man will be able to use the same table...

For Giants/Dragons/Gargoyles, a multiplier on ST might be a simple enough solution. If it was x2 for a Giant then they might get 2 ST points for the same xp cost as a human would, but then the advantage of going from 28 to 29 points is no where near as impactful as going from ST 11 to 12, so sure they get lots of strength, but then they're huge, so what would you expect? Personally in any campaign I run, the downsides of being a Gargoyle or a Giant will become very evident very quickly! ;)

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by MikMod

It might even be a simple lookup table based on rise over base stat (including character bonus) plus the PCs total added points so far. Though I need to think about the balance to ensure 'maxing' out at 2x base roughly. Not sure a halfling and a lizard man will be able to use the same table...

For Giants/Dragons/Gargoyles, a multiplier on ST might be a simple enough solution. If it was x2 for a Giant then they might get 2 ST points for the same xp cost as a human would, but then the advantage of going from 28 to 29 points is no where near as impactful as going from ST 11 to 12, so sure they get lots of strength, but then they're huge, so what would you expect? Personally in any campaign I run, the downsides of being a Gargoyle or a Giant will become very evident very quickly! ;)

I think halflings probably should have a max ST.

Giants do bring up a number of issues. In my play experience, they always tended to die pretty quickly, except in the settings where there were many of them and they had weapons and armor and weren't paticularly slow or clumsy or dull-witted.

I like to think about what I want the races to be like in the world population (lifespan and attribute level distribution) and then try to model that, rather than trying to link it to 32-point human PCs. So the XP costs I look at are based on how long a giant or dragon or whatever lives and what attributes their population tends to have, and their best individuals, then divide by the time involved to figure out how quickly they should advance in stats.

[TippetsTX]

Originally Posted by Tywyll

That's what I'm doing, dividing races by 'Tiers'
Tier 1 are humans (30+1d6 points to start)
Tier 2 are Dwarves and Wood Elves (32+1d6) and Faelings (28+1d6, several special abilities and starting talents-my replacement for halflings). They suffer a x1.25
Tier 3 are Star Elves 34+1d6 points, they suffer a x1.5
Tier 4 are Gargoyles, Sun Elves, and other powerful races. They suffer x2 (though I'm considering moving the Sun Elves to x2.5).

I'm also partial to the 'tiers' concept, though I haven't applied it to races (yet). I'm more interested in what other factors besides point totals is factored into these adjustments, however. What traits are different between Wood, Star and Sun elves, for example?

[TippetsTX]

Originally Posted by larsdangly

I preferred the old way this was done: you start out pretty cool, but take 2x as much XP to advance. Who knows if it twas fair, but in my experience it never led to trouble. And the races were more interesting because they were more strongly different from each other.

I'm also leaning this way, though I will have races at other 'tiers' besides x2 (similar to what was suggested above). I believe that there needs to be some sort of ongoing advantage beyond starting attribute totals to warrant a x2 XP penalty.

But I absolutely agree that it is more interesting when races aren't forced to be 'equal'.

[Tywyll]

Originally Posted by TippetsTX

I'm also partial to the 'tiers' concept, though I haven't applied it to races (yet). I'm more interested in what other factors besides point totals is factored into these adjustments, however. What traits are different between Wood, Star and Sun elves, for example?

I will happily post that stuff soon actually. The gist is that all the races, including humans, have advantages. I use a different xp system from Legacy, and I don't expect characters to stop advancing at 40 stat points.

Humans get a 30% discount to buying talents and may always know one talent up to 2 points above their IQ. If their IQ reaches it, they may have another insight and pick a new one.

Dwarves have the standard abilities, 1 point of stone skin armor, darkvision, and learn a handful of talents cheaper.

Elves have low light vision, start with acute hearing and access to several illusion, enchanting, and Summon animal spells, as well as learning some talents at a discount.

[TippetsTX]

Originally Posted by Tywyll

I will happily post that stuff soon actually. The gist is that all the races, including humans, have advantages. I use a different xp system from Legacy, and I don't expect characters to stop advancing at 40 stat points.

Humans get a 30% discount to buying talents and may always know one talent up to 2 points above their IQ. If their IQ reaches it, they may have another insight and pick a new one.

Dwarves have the standard abilities, 1 point of stone skin armor, darkvision, and learn a handful of talents cheaper.

Elves have low light vision, start with acute hearing and access to several illusion, enchanting, and Summon animal spells, as well as learning some talents at a discount.

Heh, we must be channeling inspiration from the same divine source.