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Old 05-14-2019, 08:47 PM   #1
TippetsTX
 
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Default XP for Unbalanced Races

There have been a few previous threads discussing different approaches to making XP progression adjustments for races that start with an attribute total exceeding that of the baseline 32-point character. Several ideas focused on making advancement less onerous for those characters, but I can't help thinking that only extends their advantage over the baseline. That said, I also believe that the original rules where XP costs were doubled for strong races like gargoyles and reptile men felt a bit punitive.

So here's my proposal, which BTW assumes that like me, you also wish to restore some imbalance to the point totals of various races for starting characters (if you prefer 32-point reptile men, best to move on to another thread)...

For every point above 32, XP costs for the next stat point will cost 10% more than dictated by the progression schedule. For example, if I want my starting reptile man to have ST 14, DX 8, IQ 8 plus 6 points to spread around (a 36-point character) it will cost me 40% more XP to increase my stats going forward (i.e. 840 XP for my 37th point, 1400 for my 38th, etc.).

If folks think 10% per point is too generous, that can certainly be adjusted but the basic approach seems sound based on no playtesting whatsoever. ;)
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Old 05-14-2019, 11:25 PM   #2
malchidael
 
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Default Re: XP for Unbalanced Races

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Originally Posted by TippetsTX View Post
There have been a few previous threads discussing different approaches to making XP progression adjustments for races that start with an attribute total exceeding that of the baseline 32-point character. Several ideas focused on making advancement less onerous for those characters, but I can't help thinking that only extends their advantage over the baseline. That said, I also believe that the original rules where XP costs were doubled for strong races like gargoyles and reptile men felt a bit punitive.

So here's my proposal, which BTW assumes that like me, you also wish to restore some imbalance to the point totals of various races for starting characters (if you prefer 32-point reptile men, best to move on to another thread)...

For every point above 32, XP costs for the next stat point will cost 10% more than dictated by the progression schedule. For example, if I want my starting reptile man to have ST 14, DX 8, IQ 8 plus 6 points to spread around (a 36-point character) it will cost me 40% more XP to increase my stats going forward (i.e. 840 XP for my 37th point, 1400 for my 38th, etc.).

If folks think 10% per point is too generous, that can certainly be adjusted but the basic approach seems sound based on no playtesting whatsoever. ;)
If I were to use the traditional starting stats for the more powerful races, I would probably go with an increased cost for the fixed-cost talents/spells instead of additional stat points; slowing down the talent/spell progression for more powerful races seems reasonable to me. This gives the more powerful races a jumpstart at the beginning, but over the long haul, they will have less capability than 32-point races. Especially given that most of the higher starting point races have caps on IQ, so they can't start with all talents/spells from the start.

Likewise, no playtesting; just midnight random thoughts as I wait for my users to sign off for the day (so I can get some sleep).
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Old 05-14-2019, 11:26 PM   #3
Sinanju
 
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Default Re: XP for Unbalanced Races

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Originally Posted by TippetsTX View Post
There have been a few previous threads discussing different approaches to making XP progression adjustments for races that start with an attribute total exceeding that of the baseline 32-point character. Several ideas focused on making advancement less onerous for those characters, but I can't help thinking that only extends their advantage over the baseline. That said, I also believe that the original rules where XP costs were doubled for strong races like gargoyles and reptile men felt a bit punitive.

So here's my proposal, which BTW assumes that like me, you also wish to restore some imbalance to the point totals of various races for starting characters (if you prefer 32-point reptile men, best to move on to another thread)...

For every point above 32, XP costs for the next stat point will cost 10% more than dictated by the progression schedule. For example, if I want my starting reptile man to have ST 14, DX 8, IQ 8 plus 6 points to spread around (a 36-point character) it will cost me 40% more XP to increase my stats going forward (i.e. 840 XP for my 37th point, 1400 for my 38th, etc.).

If folks think 10% per point is too generous, that can certainly be adjusted but the basic approach seems sound based on no playtesting whatsoever. ;)
I've been thinking about using the original recipe Gargoyles and Reptile Men in my game, and I'm thinking I'll just make them start advancing from wherever they fall on the XP table. If you're a 38-point Reptile Man, it'll cost you 2000 XP to gain another point, while your 32-point companions will advance a lot faster for a while.

Yeah, it means the Reptile Dude starts with higher stats, but he's also gonna be a trouble magnet, whether he's mistaken for a monster and attacked or people simply exhibit prejudice against His Kind (tm). I don't think it will be terribly unbalancing, but if it is I can always change things up.
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Old 05-15-2019, 07:18 AM   #4
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Default Re: XP for Unbalanced Races

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Originally Posted by Sinanju View Post
... I'm thinking I'll just make them start advancing from wherever they fall on the XP table. If you're a 38-point Reptile Man, it'll cost you 2000 XP to gain another point, while your 32-point companions will advance a lot faster for a while.
That was my original plan as well, but there comes a point when the weaker characters will eventually catch up and then everyone progresses at the same rate. This might be OK, but bear in mind that most of the 'stronger' races have other advantages as well (flight for gargoyles, claws and tail for reptile men, etc.).
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Old 05-15-2019, 07:24 AM   #5
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Default Re: XP for Unbalanced Races

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Originally Posted by malchidael View Post
If I were to use the traditional starting stats for the more powerful races, I would probably go with an increased cost for the fixed-cost talents/spells instead of additional stat points; slowing down the talent/spell progression for more powerful races seems reasonable to me. This gives the more powerful races a jumpstart at the beginning, but over the long haul, they will have less capability than 32-point races. Especially given that most of the higher starting point races have caps on IQ, so they can't start with all talents/spells from the start.
Although it wasn't specifically mentioned, the XP cost penalty I proposed could easily apply to talent/spell costs as well.
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Old 05-15-2019, 08:19 AM   #6
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Default Re: XP for Unbalanced Races

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That was my original plan as well, but there comes a point when the weaker characters will eventually catch up and then everyone progresses at the same rate. This might be OK, but bear in mind that most of the 'stronger' races have other advantages as well (flight for gargoyles, claws and tail for reptile men, etc.).
That is a big issue - Gargoyles get flight, 2D natural damage, and armor with no dex penalty. That is huge, and those are the types of things that I would use as a factor in the % increase in talent/spell costs. I would think gargoyles would be more expensive than reptile men, possibly even more than giants.

I think math would have to be done to determine at which point you want a "normal" 32-point character to be able to surpass the unbalanced races - and it probably should vary by race.
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Old 05-15-2019, 08:25 AM   #7
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Default Re: XP for Unbalanced Races

Being a gargoyle is pretty good in combat. On the other hand, you are a gargoyle.
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Old 05-15-2019, 08:31 AM   #8
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Default Re: XP for Unbalanced Races

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Originally Posted by malchidael View Post
I think math would have to be done to determine at which point you want a "normal" 32-point character to be able to surpass the unbalanced races - and it probably should vary by race.
You're probably right, though I would be willing to accept some degree of imperfection in the model if it could be reasonably applied to most situations.
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Old 05-15-2019, 08:54 AM   #9
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Default Re: XP for Unbalanced Races

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Being a gargoyle is pretty good in combat. On the other hand, you are a gargoyle.
To be fair, though - if any typical "adventuring party" walked into a town, they would be treated about the same. Heavily armored, bristling with weapons, scruffy looking, smelling of the latest labyrinth that they were in, and probably dragging several mostly-dead party members along with them..... I guess that's why they added the "Look Your Best" spell. Too bad there isn't a MegaHex version :)

I was playing a different RPG at a local game shop on Monday. Due to the nature of the module, we ended up at a costume party, but in full adventuring gear while everyone else was dressed for a ball. And no one commented, the guards didn't even seem to notice us. That bothered me more than anything else in the module.
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Old 05-15-2019, 10:46 AM   #10
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Default Re: XP for Unbalanced Races

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Originally Posted by malchidael View Post
I think math would have to be done to determine at which point you want a "normal" 32-point character to be able to surpass the unbalanced races - and it probably should vary by race.
Yes, and I think this is an area where the TFT-player tendency to avoid math and complexity like the plague, leads to many problematic ad hoc house rule suggestions.

I think that (except in the few cases where there really does happen to be a convenient and appropriate one-liner fix someone happens to think of) it tends to produce more solid solutions if a GM/house-ruler/designer does the opposite: think of what the best results you would want a rule to produce, and try to represent that with whatever complexity it takes. Consider the implications of those effects. Only when satisfied that you know what an accurate description of the goal is, try to reduce it to something cleverly simple and easy to use.

I think it's important to consider what you want the equivalent of a 38-42 point human to look like in a non-human race, and whether they have (or ought to have) any maximum attribute values.
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