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Old 05-01-2014, 03:20 PM   #1
vicky_molokh
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Default [RPM] The tricky division between Mind, Spirit and Undead?

Greetings, all!

I'm trying to wrap my head around the default division of spheres of influence between the paths of Mind, Spirit and Undead when it comes to dealing with different minds. I'm not 100% about the logical way of splitting mind types between those paths.

Classically, a ghostly soul is Undead. And a creature those body and sole are one, single thing, is a Spirit. Okay, that kinda makes sense . . . but Revivification involves Body and Spirit effects, not Undead effects. It does seem odd that affecting the thoughts of a soul takes Mind while it inhabits a body, but Undead while it lingers without one.

Also, an interesting case is entry into dreamworld, OOBE, possession/mindswap, astral projection etc., which are apparently handled with pure Mind.

Anybody got a clearer picture of all this?
Thanks in advance!
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Old 05-01-2014, 03:53 PM   #2
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Default Re: [RPM] The tricky division between Mind, Spirit and Undead?

Quote:
Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
Classically, a ghostly soul is Undead.
Yes. Ghosts, spectors, spooks, etc. are affected by Path of Undead. If it was a living being at one point and is now a spirit - it's undead and thus affected by Path of Undead.

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
And a creature those body and sole are one, single thing, is a Spirit.
Anything that has always been a purely spirit creature - that is its state has never changed like a Angel, Demon, etc. uses Path of Spirit. It also covers the soul of a still living human being or at least one that is neither undead nor has moved on - it's a big fluffy light or whatever. That muddies that waters a bit, but if you look at it as:
  • Path of Undead: Anything that was alive and is now (un)alive regardless of type or existence:
  • Path of Spirit: Anything that has a spirit/body that is one thing. Alternatievely, the spirit of living things.
  • Path of Mind: Anything living mind.

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
Okay, that kinda makes sense . . . but Revivification involves Body and Spirit effects, not Undead effects. It does seem odd that affecting the thoughts of a soul takes Mind while it inhabits a body, but Undead while it lingers without one.
Revivification? We talking Adam/The Monster of Frankenstein Fame? That's a living creature. It has a heartbeat, eats, drinks, breathes, and so on - it's affected by Path of Mind. Yes, it was dead at some point, but now it's alive again (IT'S ALIVE! ALIVE!).

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
Also, an interesting case is entry into dreamworld, OOBE, possession/mindswap, astral projection etc., which are apparently handled with pure Mind.
Yep. That's all handed with Path of Mind. Now, some GMs may decide that it's best handled with Path of Spirit because you're projecting your spirit outward or even create a entirely new Path. For Example, I created Path of Dreams for my Awakening campaign and it was essentially a amalgam of many Path skills into one - but only dealing with dreams, dream-stuff, sleep, and so on.
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Old 05-01-2014, 04:08 PM   #3
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Default Re: [RPM] The tricky division between Mind, Spirit and Undead?

Ultimately, it's up to the GM. As it stands, you have, as I see it, three types of intelligent beings - the living, the undead, and spirits. The living have their bodies affected by Path of Body and their minds by Path of Mind, the undead have both their bodies and minds affected by Path of Undead, and spirits have both their "bodies" (regardless of substance) and minds affected by Path of Spirit. Path of Spirit, at least, can also have an effect on living beings that have an immortal soul (Mantle of Glory).

As I mentioned in a previous thread, I could easily see a setting where Path of Mind applied equally to the living, undead, and spirits, while you'd use Path of Body/Undead/Spirit to affect their bodies.
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Old 05-01-2014, 05:32 PM   #4
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Default Re: [RPM] The tricky division between Mind, Spirit and Undead?

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Originally Posted by Ghostdancer View Post
Anything that has always been a purely spirit creature - that is its state has never changed like a Angel, Demon, etc. uses Path of Spirit. It also covers the soul of a still living human being or at least one that is neither undead nor has moved on - it's a big fluffy light or whatever. That muddies that waters a bit, but if you look at it as:
  • Path of Undead: Anything that was alive and is now (un)alive regardless of type or existence:
  • Path of Spirit: Anything that has a spirit/body that is one thing. Alternatievely, the spirit of living things.
  • Path of Mind: Anything living mind.
The 'spirit of living beings' seems to fall out of this logic. E.g. if I die and someone wants to make a sťance with me, I'm a ghost lounging in the sky, roasting in the ground, haunting my favourite subway station, communing with the forest or whatever. So I'm affected by the Path of Undead. Why would a living person be covered by a mix of Body, Mind and Spirit, but a dead person fully covered by one path?
I guess I'll prefer to keep Spirit for True Spirits only.

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Originally Posted by Ghostdancer View Post
Revivification? We talking Adam/The Monster of Frankenstein Fame? That's a living creature. It has a heartbeat, eats, drinks, breathes, and so on - it's affected by Path of Mind. Yes, it was dead at some point, but now it's alive again (IT'S ALIVE! ALIVE!).
I mean the Revivify RPM Ritual from p. 32 of Pyramid #3/56 Prehistory.

But yes, this raises interesting questions on the difference between revenants, homunculi, flesh golems and clay golems.
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Old 05-01-2014, 05:43 PM   #5
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Default Re: [RPM] The tricky division between Mind, Spirit and Undead?

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
The 'spirit of living beings' seems to fall out of this logic. E.g. if I die and someone wants to make a sťance with me, I'm a ghost lounging in the sky, roasting in the ground, haunting my favourite subway station, communing with the forest or whatever. So I'm affected by the Path of Undead. Why would a living person be covered by a mix of Body, Mind and Spirit, but a dead person fully covered by one path?
I guess I'll prefer to keep Spirit for True Spirits only.
Because it was designed that way? Seriously, Path of Body already covers plants, animals, humans...living things basically. So to keep some semblance of balance it needed to be split into Path of Body and Mind. At least that's how I read it.


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I mean the Revivify RPM Ritual from p. 32 of Pyramid #3/56 Prehistory.
Ahhh. That doesn't work into this at all. If you're alive, you're good. The spell is summoning the soul back into the body - not making the person undead - that's a whole other ritual.

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But yes, this raises interesting questions on the difference between revenants, homunculi, flesh golems and clay golems.
Not really much of a difference, revenants are Path of Undead, homunculi, and the golems are Path of Matter.
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Old 05-01-2014, 05:45 PM   #6
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Default Re: [RPM] The tricky division between Mind, Spirit and Undead?

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Why would a living person be covered by a mix of Body, Mind and Spirit, but a dead person fully covered by one path?
Generally for two reasons:
1) Living people are privelaged by being awesome and hard to totally dominate with magic. There's a reason why everything in the universe revolves around us, after all.
2) Game balance - or more accurately put, so players don't get honked off by NPC sorcerers janking their chains with Path of Mortality all the time and the PC sorcerer using Path of Mortality to not only heal, buff, and ward the entire party, but defeat every mortal foe as well.
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Old 05-01-2014, 06:04 PM   #7
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Default Re: [RPM] The tricky division between Mind, Spirit and Undead?

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Originally Posted by Ghostdancer View Post
Because it was designed that way? Seriously, Path of Body already covers plants, animals, humans...living things basically. So to keep some semblance of balance it needed to be split into Path of Body and Mind. At least that's how I read it.
I'm wondering about letting Mind affect the minds of anyone, whether alive, not, or spirit. Whether to let Spirit and Undead also substitute for Mind of spirits/undead, I'm unsure; I'm also unsure about another option - merging Undead and Spirit for the bodies, but letting Mind affect all minds, and removing the mind-affecting component of Spirit/Undead. Permutations, mutations, houserules, variations . . .
But I better understand the default set-up before doing anything like that.

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Originally Posted by Ghostdancer View Post
Ahhh. That doesn't work into this at all. If you're alive, you're good. The spell is summoning the soul back into the body - not making the person undead - that's a whole other ritual.
I wasn't thinking it make a person undead, but it does need to control the ghost of the deceased in order to 'put it back in'.

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Originally Posted by Ghostdancer View Post
Not really much of a difference, revenants are Path of Undead, homunculi, and the golems are Path of Matter.
I guess I should've used Geist The Sin-Eaters instead of revenants to highlight what I mean. The sort where the person is undead, but definitely the body is alive. And the idea of a homunculus was too that the body is alive, but may or may not have a soul, but does have a mind, whether rudimentary or complete.
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Old 05-01-2014, 06:10 PM   #8
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Default Re: [RPM] The tricky division between Mind, Spirit and Undead?

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
I'm wondering about letting Mind affect the minds of anyone, whether alive, not, or spirit. Whether to let Spirit and Undead also substitute for Mind of spirits/undead, I'm unsure; I'm also unsure about another option - merging Undead and Spirit for the bodies, but letting Mind affect all minds, and removing the mind-affecting component of Spirit/Undead. Permutations, mutations, houserules, variations . . .
But I better understand the default set-up before doing anything like that.
Unless you get sure...I wouldn't mess with anything, but that's just me.

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I wasn't thinking it make a person undead, but it does need to control the ghost of the deceased in order to 'put it back in'.
Maybe the definition of ghost isn't exactly clear: a soul or spirit is not a ghost. It's a soul or spirit (or animus or ka or whatever). A ghost is the soul of a deceased person who has not moved on or otherwise gone to their final destination (e.g., to punishment or to reward). So they are in a sense...undead. I made sure I specifically stated in that spell that it gets harder when the person has been dead longer. This is because many cultures believe that a soul/spirit/animus stick around the body until it's properly buried, the soul has had a chance to say goodbye, and so on. In some cultures this is bad (hello Navajo Ghostsickness) in others it's all about seeing those you love one last time while they are alive.

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
I guess I should've used Geist The Sin-Eaters instead of revenants to highlight what I mean. The sort where the person is undead, but definitely the body is alive.
Nope. That's a dead thing wearing a meat suit - use Path of Undead.

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And the idea of a homunculus was too that the body is alive, but may or may not have a soul, but does have a mind, whether rudimentary or complete.
Mmmm. Yes and no. Depending on the tradition - homunculi are basically "alchemy golems" in the traditional sense. That is they are animate clay. What you are thinking of are simulacrums (pop culture gets the two confused) which is a being brought to life by alchemy - he's covered by Path of Body.

Here it is as simple as I can get it: If it's alive it's covered by Path of Body/Mind. If it's dead but is not animate (though not alive) that's Path of Undead. If it's a spirit that is not, nor has ever been dead then it is Path of Spirit. That's it. It's that simple.
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Old 05-01-2014, 08:07 PM   #9
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Default Re: [RPM] The tricky division between Mind, Spirit and Undead?

What about a saintly visitation? That would not normally be considered undead. I think undead have to be in some way cursed or enslaved. Nazgul are undead. So were The Oathbreakers. Gandalf at his resurrection wasn't.
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Old 05-01-2014, 08:17 PM   #10
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Default Re: [RPM] The tricky division between Mind, Spirit and Undead?

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What about a saintly visitation? That would not normally be considered undead. I think undead have to be in some way cursed or enslaved. Nazgul are undead. So were The Oathbreakers. Gandalf at his resurrection wasn't.
Not necessarily. Undead are undead - whether they serve the legions of hell, the host of heave, or exist somewhere between if they come back to some form of permanent unliving existence Path of Undead should cover them. Now, saintly visitation is a oddity depending on what you consider a saint and how you perceive visions from your god (little g or big G). Assuming Roman Catholic belief, visitations from saints is more like a vision than a actual spirit you can keep away. That said, they have no earthly shackles so I'd probably treat them like I would any other spirit (if you can affect them at all!) even though they were once living humans. This is because they are essentially pure soul and have passed onto their next life. A lot of this edge cases you guys are bringing up is going to be dependent on the campaign and its GM, that is I can only say "I'd do this" or "I'd do that." It's all dependent on the cosmology of the setting and the GM can happily say "All spirit beings, once-living or otherwise are affected by Path of Spirit," but if you do that you got to let the players know ahead of time and in some cases (necromancers) it's going to make the character more expensive to create.
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