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Old 11-26-2020, 08:07 PM   #1
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default can you drop a benefit of an Ally to drop a drawback of a Dependent?

DF9 Summoners 25 highlights that casting zombie on random ordinary corpses does not require you to buy it as an Ally... yet clearly you're getting something ally-ish, kind of like when you have wealth or material possessions.

The effect of Ally always rounds up to at least 1 point (perk) so the only way to get it to zero is to pair it with Dependent.

Allies have a major benefit similar to "Signature Gear": points you spent on an ally who is slain and it's not your fault can be spent on a new ally.

This is one benefit which doesn't seem like it would apply to Zombie: if your Zombie gets slain, you don't just have a new zombie happen along: you need to put in work to make a new ally.

So I'm wondering if it would seem reasonable to trade away this expected benefit of an Ally perk to mitigate an expected drawback of a Dependent quirk.

A big downside of Dependent (B131) is if they're killed you need to make up the bonus points for them, either by getting a new Dependent or a disadvantage of the same cost.

That's something which also seems off for zombies: you shouldn't get depressed or need to care for an abandoned orphan if your zombie gets killed, yes?

So instead: maybe it just cancels out?

a) you don't get a new Ally (you just lose the points spend on the social advantage)
b) you don't get a new Dependent (you just gain the points spent on the social advantage)

This should of course only apply if the cost of Ally is greater or equal to the refund you would get for Dependent, which I'm taking for granted you would design this way when working it out to a 0pt feature.

Other drawbacks of a Dependent would of course still apply, but you should probably define zombies as "acquaintance" to minimize the help you need to give them. ("may weigh risks in a rational fashion"). The demands of Friends / Loved Ones are too high!

It seems like the half-cost version of Dependent may not as strictly require going to immediate rescue or docking bonus CP for not immediately aiding? Seems like you'd just have to aid as it demands.

Not being able to earn bonus CP when a dependent "is killed" is an interesting thing to think about for zombies since they're already dead and you might just be able to bring them back later. "Badly hurt" certainly has a higher threshold for things with No Blood and IT:Unliving...
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Old 11-26-2020, 08:35 PM   #2
Donny Brook
 
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Default Re: can you drop a benefit of an Ally to drop a drawback of a Dependent?

There is no inherent connection or cross-over between Allies and making or commanding zombies in play. I think you're off on a completely wrong foot.
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Old 11-26-2020, 11:54 PM   #3
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Default Re: can you drop a benefit of an Ally to drop a drawback of a Dependent?

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There is no inherent connection or cross-over between Allies and making or commanding zombies in play. I think you're off on a completely wrong foot.
There are plenty of GMs who will require a Wizard/Necromancer/etc who constantly has Zombies about due to judicious use of the Zombie Spell to take them as Allies, so he 's not on the wrong foot.

Plane, I recommend looking into DF 5 Allies and the "Summonable" trait applied to Allies, and how it handles it when a Summoned Ally is killed.

Personally, because of the type of Ally, I don't worry about "points lost when the Zombie Ally is killed under your orders". The Necromancer bought Allies to cover his pool of undead minions, whether that pool is full or empty, it's not really a problem for me as the GM. But then I treat them as "Constantly Available" Allies so the cost really does cover this factor.
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Old 11-27-2020, 12:33 AM   #4
Plane
 
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Default Re: can you drop a benefit of an Ally to drop a drawback of a Dependent?

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Originally Posted by Donny Brook View Post
There is no inherent connection or cross-over between Allies and making or commanding zombies in play. I think you're off on a completely wrong foot.
the connection is that they can function like allies because they follow you around and help you with stuff. A mage who has amassed an army of a thousand zombies clearly has some kind of benefit represented by at least some aspect of an Ally, even though not in the full sense where the GM would replace them if he kills them off though.

Is there perhaps some other way other than a Dependent pairing we could balance this out as 0pt?
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Old 11-27-2020, 01:27 AM   #5
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Default Re: can you drop a benefit of an Ally to drop a drawback of a Dependent?

Ally buys plot protection for a PCs relationship to an NPC, just as Signature Gear provides plot protection for a PCs relationship with an object in the game world.

No plot protection, no points.
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Old 11-27-2020, 03:24 PM   #6
Plane
 
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Default Re: can you drop a benefit of an Ally to drop a drawback of a Dependent?

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Originally Posted by Balor Patch View Post
Ally buys plot protection for a PCs relationship to an NPC, just as Signature Gear provides plot protection for a PCs relationship with an object in the game world.

No plot protection, no points.
The B117 "Unique" limitation for gadgets is something which comes to mind though... you can have something of benefit w/o plot protection where because you paid less the GM doesn't need to replace it if it's broken or stolen.

I was thinking maybe if we allowed this to float over to Allies to make them cheaper but lack plot protection?

That still can't bring it to zero though, the key thing would also be to somehow float this to Dependent?

Or maybe the simpler take here is: we know that if a Dependent dies you are not obligated to get a new dependent, you can instead take a different disadvantage...

What if a 3rd option was instead to lose an advantage? Like for example if a dependent dies, instead of gaining Low Empathy, you lost Empathy? Instead of gaining Slow Healing you lost Rapid Healing?

If that was allowed, then paying the debt with their value as an Ally would seem like the way to cancel it out.

+1/-1 zombie dies : you pay off your -1 debt with your +1 asset?
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Old 11-27-2020, 03:52 PM   #7
Taneli
 
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Default Re: can you drop a benefit of an Ally to drop a drawback of a Dependent?

A soldier with an active military rank can have underlings under their command.

A PC with enough money can hire NPCs to be their henchmen, bodyguards, or whatever.

A wizard with Zombie spell can create zombies when they have the necessary components.

None of these need to be bought with points as allies or dependents.
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Old 11-28-2020, 08:31 AM   #8
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Default Re: can you drop a benefit of an Ally to drop a drawback of a Dependent?

Iím confused what youíre getting at here. Are you supposing thereís some hidden built-in complex system using Advantages and Disadvantages for the standard magic system? Are you hoping to justify getting free Allies by not getting standard plot protection for them?
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Old 11-29-2020, 03:43 AM   #9
David Johnston2
 
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Default Re: can you drop a benefit of an Ally to drop a drawback of a Dependent?

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Originally Posted by Plane View Post
DF9 Summoners 25 highlights that casting zombie on random ordinary corpses does not require you to buy it as an Ally... yet clearly you're getting something ally-ish, kind of like when you have wealth or material possessions.

The effect of Ally always rounds up to at least 1 point (perk) so the only way to get it to zero is to pair it with Dependent..
Which is absurd. Zombies are disposable mooks. This is just another case of "Oh no! It's a terrible deal to buy things with points when they are things that you can buy with money or time." Zombies are not fundamentally different from any other enchanted item whether it's a wand of fireballs or a flying carpet. Or for that matter a gun. Don't build a gun with points when you can buy or steal one right off the shelf. It makes no sense. This isn't Hero System and nobody needs you to design a character sheet for a spoon.

If you are going to buy zombie allies in a setting where where a relatively simple spell can produce zombies then the only choice that makes sense is to have your zombie allies be somehow special zombies that normal magic just can't make. Then you aren't just throwing character points away.
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