(IC) Lost in Dreams (Julian)

[TGLS]

Originally Posted by ericthered

"They don't have the resources to stick a dedicated person on anyone who searches for cloning, but its generally a bad idea. And especially for us."

"But it would be a flag, and too many automated flags could bring in a dedicated person, and that would be bad."

Originally Posted by ericthered

"Why are you curious about cloning anyways?"

"Well apparently Florence seems to think that why I can speak to a Starpus has something to do with my physiology. I wondered aloud whether that would mean that she'd attempt to clone me, and instead of an assuring me she pretty much said yes if it comes to that. This was kind of upsetting, but I wanted to know whether this is just Florence being Florence or this is how people who are in favour of cloning are like."

Originally Posted by ericthered

The screen boots back up. "You still have the network. You also still have my checks. I have your back."

"Thank you."

I go looking for something less controversial to occupy my time. Maybe they have cat videos or maybe I could learn how to draw? Maybe I can find something resembling schoolwork if I end up having a lot of downtime tomorrow, or maybe I could find a book to read.

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by TGLS

"Well apparently Florence seems to think that why I can speak to a Starpus has something to do with my physiology. I wondered aloud whether that would mean that she'd attempt to clone me, and instead of an assuring me she pretty much said yes if it comes to that. This was kind of upsetting, but I wanted to know whether this is just Florence being Florence or this is how people who are in favor of cloning are like."

"If we're all like Florence? Nobody is like Florence. She's one of a kind: Spectacular Mind, Spectacular personal skills. That said: I know what you are, what you can do, and if it 'came to that', yes, I would go ahead and support cloning you. I think most of this team would."


"I know its a little strange and unfamiliar and troubling if you haven't lived on Panogos for bit. We don't go around cloning just anyone, and cloning specific people has some heavy ethical considerations. We're not that kind of criminal. It takes a special case to warrant it, and such a clone is duty-bound to be given the best possible life. Its a compliment to you, if you think about it."


"Look at the flip side though: If you found someone had cloned you and were treating your gene-brother with the best upbringing money can buy, and providing him with the proper socialization and care and love, would you demand they be thrown in prison? Or would you demand that your gene-brother be torn from them and put in your unprepared care?"

I go looking for something less controversial to occupy my time. Maybe they have cat videos or maybe I could learn how to draw? Maybe I can find something resembling schoolwork if I end up having a lot of downtime tomorrow, or maybe I could find a book to read.

Finding educational videos and games and tools is easy. Any subject he focuses on? (you've thrown out art already)

[TGLS]

Originally Posted by ericthered

"If we're all like Florence? Nobody is like Florence. She's one of a kind: Spectacular Mind, Spectacular personal skills."

"Well, 'Spectacular' is one word for her personal skills, I guess." I can think of others.

Originally Posted by ericthered

"That said: I know what you are, what you can do, and if it 'came to that', yes, I would go ahead and support cloning you. I think most of this team would."

It seems obvious now but, "I take it that most of the team is from Panagos?"

Originally Posted by ericthered

"I know its a little strange and unfamiliar and troubling if you haven't lived on Panogos for bit. We don't go around cloning just anyone, and cloning specific people has some heavy ethical considerations. We're not that kind of criminal. It takes a special case to warrant it, and such a clone is duty-bound to be given the best possible life."

I consider my next question carefully, "Does special case always mean, 'important job that no one else can do' and never, 'shortcut to years of research'?"

I think a little bit more: "They'd be fairly paid, and free to do whatever they wanted to, right?"

Originally Posted by ericthered

"Its a compliment to you, if you think about it."

I scoff. "Like I deserve it."

Originally Posted by ericthered

"Look at the flip side though: If you found someone had cloned you and were treating your gene-brother with the best upbringing money can buy, and providing him with the proper socialization and care and love, would you demand they be thrown in prison? Or would you demand that your gene-brother be torn from them and put in your unprepared care?"

"I don't know. Putting it that way makes me feel like I'd be being rather selfish. But wouldn't they're motivations seem rather suspect if you weren't consulted at all? I'd hate to have to incinerate every brush and can out of fear someone would make off with a comb to make copies of me."

Originally Posted by ericthered

Finding educational videos and games and tools is easy. Any subject he focuses on? (you've thrown out art already)

Depends on how long the downtime is. I think it's fair to say Julian's had a pretty stressful 24 hours so far, and wants to relax first. Once he feels a bit more relaxed he'll look into studying... Let's say English first.

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by TGLS

It seems obvious now but, "I take it that most of the team is from Panagos?"

"Moneyface might not be. Everyone else seems to be."

I consider my next question carefully, "Does special case always mean, 'important job that no one else can do' and never, 'shortcut to years of research'?"

"It usually means research that can only be done by copying someone specific... I suppose that means important job no one else can do. If you're implying that people might just throw a theory at an exowomb, there are people who do that, and they're selfish greedy psychopaths who hurt children to satisfy their curiosity and ambition. Every approved case is different. The most common cases are resistances to some sort of disease or other unpleasant condition."

I think a little bit more: "They'd be fairly paid, and free to do whatever they wanted to, right?"

"They have the full rights of any citizen. And the right to affection, which non-Panogans always seem to forget."

I scoff. "Like I deserve it."

"Its not about what you deserve. Its about what you can do. And you can do something I can't do and will never be able to do."

"I don't know. Putting it that way makes me feel like I'd be being rather selfish. But wouldn't they're motivations seem rather suspect if you weren't consulted at all? I'd hate to have to incinerate every brush and can out of fear someone would make off with a comb to make copies of me."

"That fear of being cloned is why things are set up this way. You can't live in fear of your DNA being stolen, and its just not possible to protect yourself completely. Concordance People like to think that they ARE their DNA, but its just one of many inputs that makes a person. Your duty is to the people you've helped create. You can't let yourself be put in slavery by someone copying your genetic code."


"I'd say the considerations are a high enough bar that merely consulting you is insufficient. Making a perfect clone of yourself is highly regulated. It takes an expert team to authorize a fully replicated person."

Depends on how long the downtime is. I think it's fair to say Julian's had a pretty stressful 24 hours so far, and wants to relax first. Once he feels a bit more relaxed he'll look into studying... Let's say English first.

Ok, he might not get all the way to studying just yet... But he should get around to drawing vasic on himself. It works.

[TGLS]

Originally Posted by ericthered

"It usually means research that can only be done by copying someone specific... I suppose that means important job no one else can do. If you're implying that people might just throw a theory at an exowomb, there are people who do that, and they're selfish greedy psychopaths who hurt children to satisfy their curiosity and ambition. Every approved case is different. The most common cases are resistances to some sort of disease or other unpleasant condition."

"Well, I'm more wondering what, 'if it comes to that' means here. Florence seems to have a lot of theories with big words she wants to test to figure out exactly how I can hear a Starpus. I'm sure that testing all of them would probably take longer than it would to clone another me. I want to be sure this isn't being done for expedience."

Originally Posted by ericthered

"They have the full rights of any citizen. And the right to affection, which non-Panogans always seem to forget."

Something nags at the back of my head. If being a clone isn't such a big deal, then why did the suggestion of being treated as a clone seem like such a bad deal? Orgel seemed to be be a little worried about how I'd feel about being sent to a technical creche... And it just so happens to be that information about cloning draws the attention of the authorities...

I decide to ask, "Can I look up how clones on Panagos are treated?"

Originally Posted by ericthered

"Its not about what you deserve. Its about what you can do. And you can do something I can't do and will never be able to do."

I briefly wonder if even my clone would be able to talk with Starpi or be used as a Vasic. Maybe it's not just purely physiological...

Originally Posted by ericthered

"That fear of being cloned is why things are set up this way. You can't live in fear of your DNA being stolen, and its just not possible to protect yourself completely. Concordance People like to think that they ARE their DNA, but its just one of many inputs that makes a person."

I try to avoid the thought that the only reason I can speak to Starpi is because of something terrible that happened to me.

I instead think about another me walking around, never having to experience all the terrible events that marked my life, living in the future, pure and innocent. Instead of feeling better, I find myself wallowing in jealous rage. It shouldn't be like that; there shouldn't be a second Julian who gets everything given to him on a platter. Maybe the concordance has it right...

Originally Posted by ericthered

"Your duty is to the people you've helped create. You can't let yourself be put in slavery by someone copying your genetic code."

It sounds so reasonable, until something reminds me that if I had a relative who thought in the opposite way, I wouldn't have been at the orphanage for so long. I might have grown up normally.

I think about the way Seven's phrased this, it's just like how Florence put it. "Why do you call it slavery?"

Originally Posted by ericthered

"I'd say the considerations are a high enough bar that merely consulting you is insufficient. Making a perfect clone of yourself is highly regulated. It takes an expert team to authorize a fully replicated person."

"Sure, it's probably insufficient, but it puts a lot of faith in an institution to assume that they know better than the person whose DNA it is. Why not ask both?"

Originally Posted by ericthered

Ok, he might not get all the way to studying just yet... But he should get around to drawing vasic on himself. It works.

Well, before he does that he makes sure to put the tablet facedown on the desk or in a drawer or something. He might not check for hidden cameras, but obvious cameras will be shut.

Hm. I guess these portals work at really long ranges, if they've never heard of Riask before. Or maybe it's closer than I think it is, and it's just a matter of time. Or maybe it's just pointing to Panogos's Star. If rescuing a Starpus is really going to create absurd sums maybe I could go out the middle of nowhere and try it there to find out.

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by TGLS

"Well, I'm more wondering what, 'if it comes to that' means here. Florence seems to have a lot of theories with big words she wants to test to figure out exactly how I can hear a Starpus. I'm sure that testing all of them would probably take longer than it would to clone another me. I want to be sure this isn't being done for expedience."

"No, cloning would take longer, if they can be tested at all. People are expensive to raise and take a long time to grow up. She'd much rather figure out a sequence of genes that can be placed in new children to make them astropic."

I decide to ask, "Can I look up how clones on Panagos are treated?"

"Free searching it is dangerous. You probably just need to talk to someone. None of us are clones, but my parents were, and I think the rest of the group is mostly descended from clones one way or another. What sort of information do you want about Clone life? I can give you official material, but I don't know if you should believe all of it."

I think about the way Seven's phrased this, it's just like how Florence put it. "Why do you call it slavery?"

"What else do you call giving someone a life-long financial and emotional obligation that will limit their ability to move around for two decades or more without consulting them?"


"The term 'slavery' in this context is related to the efforts to build the clone system in the first place, when we worked all this out. We probably use it to break down people's genetic instincts. The alternative is to turn our society into a chaotic mess."

"Sure, it's probably insufficient, but it puts a lot of faith in an institution to assume that they know better than the person whose DNA it is. Why not ask both?"

"Two Institutions: The one sponsoring the research and the one raising the child. And we have a lot of trust in the latter. Some people have accused the clone creches of being a religion. And why would the person whose DNA it is know better? Do mother's need to ask their parent's permission before passing on their DNA? Why would a person Own their particular genetic sequence? They didn't work hard on it. They didn't think about. Its older than they are."

[TGLS]

Originally Posted by ericthered

"No, cloning would take longer, if they can be tested at all. People are expensive to raise and take a long time to grow up. She'd much rather figure out a sequence of genes that can be placed in new children to make them astropic."

"Well, that's good to hear." I ignore the little voice in my head, worried about vanishing again.

Originally Posted by ericthered

"Free searching it is dangerous. You probably just need to talk to someone. None of us are clones,"

"Not even Florence?" I immediately regret saying that, "Sorry, that was just rude."

Originally Posted by ericthered

"but my parents were, and I think the rest of the group is mostly descended from clones one way or another. What sort of information do you want about Clone life?"

"What it's like growing up in a creche, maybe? What it's like to know there's someone exactly like you walking around, only older? How it feels to know exactly why you exist?"

Originally Posted by ericthered

"I can give you official material, but I don't know if you should believe all of it."

Well, no reason not to be blunt. "Is it biased against cloning? I'm willing to hear any opinion out."

Originally Posted by ericthered

"What else do you call giving someone a life-long financial and emotional obligation that will limit their ability to move around for two decades or more without consulting them?"

"Storge, Familial love?"

I switch topics, "Are there no unplanned births on Panogos? No orphans? If your sibling died and their children had nowhere else to go, do you just fob them off onto a creche and go about your life?"

Originally Posted by ericthered

"The term 'slavery' in this context is related to the efforts to build the clone system in the first place, when we worked all this out. We probably use it to break down people's genetic instincts. The alternative is to turn our society into a chaotic mess."

"That seems to miss the rather more obvious alternative by simply just phasing out further cloning."

Originally Posted by ericthered

"Two Institutions: The one sponsoring the research and the one raising the child. And we have a lot of trust in the latter. Some people have accused the clone creches of being a religion."

"Wait, what? Do they... Worship something? Believe in something on faith alone? Have rituals? Do they have rules that apply for a clone's whole life?"

That certainly explains why closing a few cloning centres would be such a big deal.

Well, the next question is probably going to be asked unless the accusations are insubstantial.
"How can you have such trust in an organization like that?"

Originally Posted by ericthered

"And why would the person whose DNA it is know better? Do mother's need to ask their parent's permission before passing on their DNA?"

"No, but maybe they ought to ask the fathers."

Originally Posted by ericthered

"Why would a person Own their particular genetic sequence? They didn't work hard on it. They didn't think about. Its older than they are."

The last statement annoys me a little. "No it isn't. The specific genes might be older than they are, but the sequence is literally exactly as old as they are. Arguing that is like arguing that the diary is older than I am because all the words in the diary are older than me."

Then I back up the the first question, "Do I not own my hair? My left arm? My right eye? My lungs? They're all as a part of my body as my DNA is."

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by TGLS

"Not even Florence?" I immediately regret saying that, "Sorry, that was just rude."

Seven: "No, she'd be my last guess for a clone. She's studied up on it, but that's not how she came into the world."

"What it's like growing up in a creche, maybe? What it's like to know there's someone exactly like you walking around, only older? How it feels to know exactly why you exist?"

"I'll see if I can find someone to answer those for you. In real time. Or even in person."

Well, no reason not to be blunt. "Is it biased against cloning? I'm willing to hear any opinion out."

"Biased FOR cloning. The basic theory of what should be happening. The blueprint its all based on."

"Storge, Familial love?"

Seven: "Lots of related people are utterly lacking in that, and lots of unrelated people get along just great. Familial love is great. Except when it leads to bizarre life-long obligations to people you never met and have no ties to other than genetic."

I switch topics, "Are there no unplanned births on Panogos? No orphans? If your sibling died and their children had nowhere else to go, do you just fob them off onto a creche and go about your life?"

Seven: "I've got enough family to take care of one more sibling dying. My current contribution is mostly financial... they say it helps. If it was just me and one or two kids left... hard to say. I'm not good with children like the others. I'd probably end up hiring someone or finding just the right creche..."


Seven:"Where were we? Unplanned births and orphans? unwanted births generally end up with relatives or creches. It all Depends on the family. Orphans are the same way, depending on who is left."

"That seems to miss the rather more obvious alternative by simply just phasing out further cloning."

Seven: "Would that really solve the issue? The basic technology can't be restricted, not with putting back reproductive medicine hundreds of years. And you've seen what's happened when we've slowed down the cloning. And we enjoy one of the best standards of living out there because of the cloning program."

"Wait, what? Do they... Worship something? Believe in something on faith alone? Have rituals? Do they have rules that apply for a clone's whole life?"

"If they worshiped something or had rituals it wouldn't be mere accusations. It's a... cause unto itself. People join the creche centers because they believe in the cause, and all the ethics and child-bearing that go with it. They believe raising children is the highest possible duty and joy, or something like that. I don't get it. I'm making a lot of money and I'll help those people out, but I don't have time to devote my life to life and love and all that."

"How can you have such trust in an organization like that?"

Seven:"Because life and love and all that. They have to raise the kid, and they care. The caretakers of the kid have to say yes."

"No, but maybe they ought to ask the fathers."

Seven:"Sure... if the father is going to be helping to raise the kid. If he doesn't agree, he doesn't owe anyone anything."

The last statement annoys me a little. "No it isn't. The specific genes might be older than they are, but the sequence is literally exactly as old as they are. Arguing that is like arguing that the diary is older than I am because all the words in the diary are older than me."

"the sections of code that get transferred from your parents are a lot bigger than individual words. More like pages."

Then I back up the the first question, "Do I not own my hair? My left arm? My right eye? My lungs? They're all as a part of my body as my DNA is."

"When's the last time you left your arm on a table? When's the last time you made a new arm? Or if we want to say hair... Do you have a right to the hair you're leaving all over this computer? Do you have some right to demand I not make a copy of your hair? DNA is information. If I take your arm, you don't have it anymore. If I take a copy of your DNA, you aren't any poorer. Unless you happen to be a trade secret or patented or a military secret... You aren't any of those things are you? Not that its going to stop anything, or that they're just, but I like to know what the laws are before I break them. Keeps me looking for the relevant threats."

[TGLS]

Originally Posted by ericthered

Seven: "No, she'd be my last guess for a clone. She's studied up on it, but that's not how she came into the world."

"There's a third option?"

Originally Posted by ericthered

"I'll see if I can find someone to answer those for you. In real time. Or even in person."

"Wow, you can do that? Thanks!"

Originally Posted by ericthered

"Biased FOR cloning. The basic theory of what should be happening. The blueprint its all based on."

"And this is the government people are rebelling against, for being anti-cloning?"

"Guess it figures though; there's the way it's supposed to be and the way it is, even here."

Originally Posted by ericthered

Seven: "Lots of related people are utterly lacking in that, and lots of unrelated people get along just great. Familial love is great. Except when it leads to bizarre life-long obligations to people you never met and have no ties to other than genetic."

"Maybe you're right. People do come from broken homes after all... But I'm still almost certain my life would have been better if someone did feel a bizarre life-long obligation to me..."

Originally Posted by ericthered

Seven: "I've got enough family to take care of one more sibling dying. My current contribution is mostly financial... they say it helps. If it was just me and one or two kids left... hard to say. I'm not good with children like the others. I'd probably end up hiring someone or finding just the right creche..."

Seven:"Where were we? Unplanned births and orphans? unwanted births generally end up with relatives or creches. It all Depends on the family. Orphans are the same way, depending on who is left."

Seems a bit depressing, imagine that it's just an obligation that needs to be handled...

Originally Posted by ericthered

Seven: "Would that really solve the issue? The basic technology can't be restricted, not with putting back reproductive medicine hundreds of years."

"... And just telling people not to do it wouldn't work either? I mean, maybe like inspections or something? Or would that create a 'chaotic mess'?"

Originally Posted by ericthered

Seven: "And you've seen what's happened when we've slowed down the cloning."

Well that's surprising. "I have? When? Do they usually employ more social workers to stop kidnappings?"

I suppose Seven might be referring to the dingier section of the other station. If so,

"Isn't that concordance territory?"

Originally Posted by ericthered

Seven: "And we enjoy one of the best standards of living out there because of the cloning program."

"And you couldn't maintain that without cloning because...?"

Originally Posted by ericthered

"If they worshiped something or had rituals it wouldn't be mere accusations. It's a... cause unto itself. People join the creche centers because they believe in the cause, and all the ethics and child-bearing that go with it. They believe raising children is the highest possible duty and joy, or something like that. I don't get it. I'm making a lot of money and I'll help those people out, but I don't have time to devote my life to life and love and all that."

Hm... Sounds like that might actually be an OK place...

Originally Posted by ericthered

Seven:"Because life and love and all that. They have to raise the kid, and they care. The caretakers of the kid have to say yes."

"Yeah, but like, who selects the creche? And they aren't all the same, right? Surely there could be abuse somewhere along the line."

Originally Posted by ericthered

Seven:"Sure... if the father is going to be helping to raise the kid. If he doesn't agree, he doesn't owe anyone anything."

"So if a father is going to help raise the kid, then he should get input in whether there should be a kid at all, and if not then he doesn't deserve any input at all? Seems like a catch-22."

Originally Posted by ericthered

"the sections of code that get transferred from your parents are a lot bigger than individual words. More like pages."

"8 million combinations though... Still enough to be unique, even just from one pair of parents."

Originally Posted by ericthered

"When's the last time you left your arm on a table?"

My eyes unfocus briefly, "It was three years ago. Good children don't leave their arms on the table..."

I shake it off. "I guess I get what you mean?"

Originally Posted by ericthered

"Or if we want to say hair... Do you have a right to the hair you're leaving all over this computer? Do you have some right to demand I not make a copy of your hair?"

"I dunno, why would anyone want my hair? And if they did, why should someone who's not me decide who gets my hair?"

Originally Posted by ericthered

"DNA is information. If I take your arm, you don't have it anymore. If I take a copy of your DNA, you aren't any poorer."

"Well, unless you count, 'poorer from being filled with worries'."

Originally Posted by ericthered

"Unless you happen to be a trade secret or patented or a military secret... You aren't any of those things are you? Not that its going to stop anything, or that they're just, but I like to know what the laws are before I break them. Keeps me looking for the relevant threats."

"Not that I know of, no."

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by TGLS

"There's a third option?"

"Her parents grew her in an exowomb like everyone else. What third option? Natural Birth?"

"Wow, you can do that? Thanks!"

"Its not that hard. Panogos wouldn't be possible without them. They're everywhere."

"And this is the government people are rebelling against, for being anti-cloning?"

"Its old material. stuff published before the war. The Loyalist government probably doesn't look anti-cloning to you -- they're Panagoans being pressured by the Concordance. The <Bleep> concordance has been trying to destroy cloning here for a while. Its a little bit of destroying a rival, and a little bit of honest hate."

"Maybe you're right. People do come from broken homes after all... But I'm still almost certain my life would have been better if someone did feel a bizarre life-long obligation to me..."

"You're right, you need life-long human connection. You just don't need that from someone with your own genes. That probably is more important to you than the money we're offering."

Seems a bit depressing, imagine that it's just an obligation that needs to be handled...

So he doesn't say that out loud, and thus doesn't go down that conversation path.

"... And just telling people not to do it wouldn't work either? I mean, maybe like inspections or something? Or would that create a 'chaotic mess'?"

"You can't catch them all. You can't control every single exo-womb. And you still have to figure out what to do when you find 40 babies all cloned from the same parents in some monster's laboratory."

Well that's surprising. "I have? When? Do they usually employ more social workers to stop kidnappings?"

"The war, obviously. When you tell people their mode of life is immoral and try to stop it you get violent reactions."

"And you couldn't maintain that without cloning because...?"

"Population. It takes millions and millions of people to maintain all this infrastructure. Without cloning, we'd be like all the other worlds, stuck with about 100 million at best. Now all those worlds serve the whims of the tyrants of the concordance."

"Yeah, but like, who selects the creche? And they aren't all the same, right? Surely there could be abuse somewhere along the line."

"I'm not sure. I know when these sorts of exceptions are sought, it often makes the news. Seems like they're always trying to show off the quality of the creche picked."

"So if a father is going to help raise the kid, then he should get input in whether there should be a kid at all, and if not then he doesn't deserve any input at all? Seems like a catch-22."

"What is 'catch-22'? But yeah, you have it right."

"8 million combinations though... Still enough to be unique, even just from one pair of parents."

"Is it? Combinatorics is pretty wild, but 8 million combinations from two parents is pretty impressive. Ok, you may be more unique than I thought. But is that combination really yours? wouldn't it belong to the people* who made you?"

"I dunno, why would anyone want my hair? And if they did, why should someone who's not me decide who gets my hair?"

"Because they did the work of gathering your hair? I don't really want your hair on my computer, but maybe I collect it and analyze who uses my computer. Maybe I'm an an academic or collector of hair-types."

"Well, unless you count, 'poorer from being filled with worries'."

"I suppose if you believe you have an absolute duty to anyone who shares your genetics that could make you worry... But isn't that an argument against that belief?"

"Not that I know of, no."

"Lets try to keep it that way"

AFTER CONVERSATION:
Conversation with Clone
Reading "official material"

*I'm retroactively realizing these people would have completely invented a new set of Jargon for family relations and bonds that don't imply parents and children.