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Old 06-11-2021, 11:06 AM   #31
Icelander
 
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Default Re: Independent Income at later TL stages

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
The only thing that keeps me from having independant Income as Gurps does it is that I could tap into what i have invested and I could change the monthly income I get from my account if I needed to.
That's fine, GURPS characters can change their point values too.

Assume that the GURPS value of starting Wealth is what you'd get if you needed to liquidate your assets that same day. If a character has more time than that and is okay with selling their Wealth off, I'd allow significantly more liquid capital to be realized in months or years of work, but after that, the character would have a lower point value and lower Wealth.
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Old 06-11-2021, 12:35 PM   #32
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Default Re: Independent Income at later TL stages

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
The only thing that keeps me from having independant Income as Gurps does it is that I could tap into what i have invested and I could change the monthly income I get from my account if I needed to.
Yeah, II is more like an endowment or trust. It may well be backed by stock, but those details are mostly irrelevant to the recipient.
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Old 06-11-2021, 01:11 PM   #33
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Default Re: Independent Income at later TL stages

Apologies if this has been brought up, but isn't [20] in Independent Income the maximum? Given that II can come from a variety of sources - investments (as noted), royalties (what the initial wealth was created from in the backstory), tribute (it's not an inappropriate trait for a Medieval lord, and some cyberpunk elites function similarly), gifts (including trust funds that make some portion available at regular intervals), more direct investments (like owning a company but having it managed all internally while you rake in some of the profits *coughBruceWaynecough*), etc - it seems like the maximum level available would combine a lot of these sources. So maybe the character doesn't have a ridiculous amount of money in the stock market and isn't getting suspiciously-high returns, but rather has a lot of other sources in play that similarly don't require input from the character.
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Old 06-11-2021, 01:45 PM   #34
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Default Re: Independent Income at later TL stages

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
That's fine, GURPS characters can change their point values too.

Assume that the GURPS value of starting Wealth is what you'd get if you needed to liquidate your assets that same day. If a character has more time than that and is okay with selling their Wealth off, I'd allow significantly more liquid capital to be realized in months or years of work, but after that, the character would have a lower point value and lower Wealth.
Maybe this would work like a case of taking Alternative Abilities between Wealth and Independent Income?

Like you can't access your wealthiness and benefit from independent income simultaneously?

Wealth seems more about "the money I can make at a job" moreso than "the money I possess" though. The status of your wealth trait (disadvantage or advantage) determines your starting assets but doesn't seem to guarantee that you would actually KEEP those assets.

For that reason I'm actually thinking maybe starting wealth should be paid for separately, kind of like how you can trade points for money while in play which doesn't affect your actual wealth traits.

Given that the value of Innate Attack doesn't seem to vary based on TL of the setting (even though it's probably a lot more of a gamechanger at TL0 vs TL9) another fun approach might be to give wealthiness and income fixed costs regardless of TL and force people who want the higher incomes expected of higher TLs to pay for them.

OTOH if you are jumping dimensions/times and can't access your job, such income isn't entirely useful. Maybe if Independent Income can't be accessed in other worlds/times there would be an accessibility limitation? If cash on hand has point value (which one might perceive it has having if you buy it with CP) but is useless in some places (a $100 bill is as useful as a $1 bill for kindling in the stone age) then it might have some kind of limitation too?
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Old 06-11-2021, 02:15 PM   #35
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Default Re: Independent Income at later TL stages

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
Apologies if this has been brought up, but isn't [20] in Independent Income the maximum?
There's no sensible reason to take more than [10], after that just buy up Wealth.
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Old 06-11-2021, 02:43 PM   #36
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Default Re: Independent Income at later TL stages

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Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
That free time was the main thing the advantage was intended to buy.
Also freedom from Job Rolls, which in GURPS 3e could have really serious effects on a critical failure.
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Old 06-11-2021, 02:59 PM   #37
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Default Re: Independent Income at later TL stages

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Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
Or they might not have any wealth. They might live in a society that has a guaranteed minimum monthly income paid by the government. Or they might have a pension from a former job. Or they might have a family that sends them remittances every month, as long as they stay far enough away not to embarrass anyone. Independent Income is tied to Wealth only notionally.
I've modeled ultratech citizens living in a "quasi-utopian" society (think of the nicer bits of the Star Trek or Star Wars universes) as automatically having Struggling Income + Independent Wealth. That is, pensions, UBI payments, etc. provide you with enough income for the necessities of life even if you can't or won't work. Exact income in credits, cybercoin, or megabux required to sustain this lifestyle is irrelevant; only remaining disposable funds left over after the bills are paid matters.

On a more realistic basis, this idea can be applied to modern characters who are technically worth millions or billions but whose actual income might be considerably less. For example, if you're a retiree who did everything right and have a great investment portfolio, you might be worth millions of dollars, but effectively only have an Average or Comfortable level of Wealth because you can only draw on dividends rather than dipping into capital.

"Untouchable Capital" might be a leveled Perk which gives benefits similar to Courtesy Rank, but only for purposes of how creditworthy you are.
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Old 06-11-2021, 11:55 PM   #38
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Default Re: Independent Income at later TL stages

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Originally Posted by Stormcrow View Post
When the description of Independent Income says you get an income of 1% of your adjusted starting wealth per level of the trait, it doesn't mean your Multimillionaire 3 with Independent Income 20 invested 20% of $300 million. The amount of income you get is completely unrelated to how much money you have, EXCEPT for purposes of counting character points.
True but even if you do it properly things are still ridiculous

*Independent Income is "Your monthly income is 1% of your starting wealth (adjusted for wealth level) per level of this trait, to a maximum of 20%." B26

*TL 9's monthly income is $30.000
*Multimillionaire (50+25/level) is a 100*10 per level times starting welath

The adjusted starting wealth of TL 9 with Multimillionaire 3 is $30.000 *100*10^3 or $30.000 * 100,000 which is $3,000,000,000.

20% of that is $3,000,000,000 * 0.20 or $600,000,000 per month.

As you say this is "unrelated to how much money you have" but the above is firmly linked to adjusted starting wealth. So Hal's question is a valid one as I doubt all of this independent income is "real" (ie they are rich on paper)
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Old 06-12-2021, 01:36 AM   #39
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Default Re: Independent Income at later TL stages

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Originally Posted by hal View Post
Let's take Multi-millionaire III as an advantage for TL 9 for starters. Starting wealth is $30,000 at TL 9. Filthy Rich takes it up to $300,000,000.
Filthy Rich is x100, so that's $3,000,000. $300M requires Multimillionaire II

Quote:
Ever compute the hourly wage required to earn "average income" for someone working a 40 hour work week in order to earn *AFTER TAXES* 3,600 a month?
That'd be roughly $54K per annum, depending on your local tax rate. About $26/hour for a 40 hour week. That also implies that the TL9 minimum wage worker (getting half that, but probably a lower tax rate) gets about $12/hour (in GURPS dollars, which apparently convert roughly to ~2004 US dollars at 1:1). At TL8 that's ~$9/hour (which is about right for the NZ minimum wage around then, allowing for exchange rates, etc.).
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Last edited by Rupert; 06-12-2021 at 03:35 PM.
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Old 06-12-2021, 01:41 AM   #40
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Default Re: Independent Income at later TL stages

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Originally Posted by maximara View Post
True but even if you do it properly things are still ridiculous
The synergistic way II and Wealth interact definitely has problems. Just about everything to do with GURPS' rules on income, living expenses, and wealth past "pay X points for Y starting cash" have problems.
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