What has high SM ever done for us?

[CarrionPeacock]

The main upsides mentioned here seems to be the discounted ST and better grappling but I can't shake the feeling those doesn't even come close to making up for the downsides.
I'm not taking in consideration very large monsters, those are either NPCs with no point budget or for special campaigns the GM would hand out enough points for their ST with or without discount.
A starting Barbarian with Gigantism gets only 7 points back from the ST discount, while the -1 to hit most average foes is, I think, worth about -10 points. They would also give those foes +1 to hit him, while SM makes it more difficult for him to be well armored.
Grappling is situational at best, it might be very useful in a cops game you can't just go around killing but in a DF type of game where you're more likely to have larger characters (and the points for it), grappling monsters is suicidal.
Then there's the problem that high SM needs a lot of point investment in ST to benefit from it (in fact, it requires it to stay logical), while low SM is by itself a great benefit.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Lovewyrm

Pixies are regarded as potentially deadly too.

In rather older media, yes, because all manner of bad things happening was blamed on them and their ilk. Some recent things will also depict them as monstrous, often akin to a pack of piranhas, but that's a purposeful subversion of the most common treatment for some time - with them as cute, generally-harmless (if sometimes mischievous) beings.

Originally Posted by Lovewyrm

I just have a hard time picturing any actual human people going: This is a large human, he's gonna kill and rape everyone!

I take it you're not from the United States. There have been (and unfortunately still are) times and places here where you could replace "large human" with "<fill-in-the-blank ethnicity> man" and that would sum up many of the inhabitants' viewpoint fairly accurately. And that's just a human who looks a little different, not one twice the size and four times as strong as a typical human (which is what you'd get on average with SM+2).

Oh, and the effect is markedly exacerbated if the person in question also happens to be of above-average height, and is reduced if of below-average height, because there's a natural intimidation factor involved with height. So, you're probably going to have some disdain toward those who are simply Other (giants, faeries, humans of a different ethnicity), and the size difference will exacerbate that for giants, but reduce - if not outright negate - it for tiny faeries.

Of course, I'm not certain "people are wary around you" and "people subconsciously consider you harmless" are meant to be part of the effects of high SM and low SM, respectively.

Originally Posted by Lovewyrm

It really is amusing to me that there's a notion that people would rather talk to dragons or something than a really big man.

Dragons should probably suffer the same sort of effect, and probably suffer it to a greater extent, given they are markedly more Other than giants. Then again, giants might get hit with the Uncanny Valley effect, while that's not really an issue for dragons.

Originally Posted by Lovewyrm

That there are/were bear cults IRL (and bears are scary), but a big man is public enemy number one.

There will be some people who think giants are the greatest thing ever, it's just not going to be extremely common (note those were bear cults, which by their nature tend to be a bit fringe; of course, there were larger groups that rather respected bears, but it was more a "don't mess with them" sort of respect).

Originally Posted by Lovewyrm

That people sigh whistfully at whalesong (those are quite large) but abhor the big man.

Before we had better knowledge of whales, they were often viewed as monstrous. I'm pretty certain whale sightings are what resulted in the idea of sea serpents, after all. And the low TL settings we're discussing are very much in the "Here there be monsters" type of era. If giants have a reputation as being kind, gentle souls, obviously there won't be an issue.

Originally Posted by Lovewyrm

That people IRL quasi campaigned against D&D 'chaotic evil branding' of some races, even like orcs which literally were described as quite unsavory but "not all orcs, not every half orc has to be conceived via assault"

I think this was more people realizing that the treatment of orcs (and other "monstrous" races) paralleled how we used to think of many minority groups, and that made a lot of people uncomfortable. You don't have to go far to find someone complaining that Tolkien must have been racist and was obviously using orcs as an expy for some ethnic group... because "everyone of group X is Evil" is the way many people used to view the world (and some still do).

Originally Posted by Lovewyrm

Ohh, or clifford the big dog. That's fine, but not a big man?

Clifford would be terrifying to see IRL, it's just when he's safely illustrated in a children's book - or animated by CGI on the big screen, wasn't there a movie not long ago? - that's not so much an issue.

[RedMattis]

Originally Posted by Varyon

Of course, I'm not certain "people are wary around you" and "people subconsciously consider you harmless" are meant to be part of the effects of high SM and low SM, respectively.

It does have a sizable (hah) effect on the effectiveness of intimidation. Otherwise by GURPS RAW you should get what you pay for though, so if your reaction modifier averages out at +0 then you should realistically get normal reactions on average (but probably with a wildly varying median any given day due situational to bonuses or penalties).

Realistically on the other hand, something Yrth-Giant-sized should probably average at, say, "-2 reactions" (and get 10 points back for that), but also get some really high (and low) reactions in specific situations. F.ex. bandits probably won't want to risk attacking you (and might be happy to trade loot instead!), and predators that might go after a human will likely avoid you, which is effectively a positive reaction. Even dragons, gods, etc. might be more willing to negotiate with someone who isn't a puny little human. But on the flip side you'd be facing large penalties trying to convince the defenders of a motte and bailey that letting you past their defenses is a good idea, and if you need an audience with the king you'll probably have to settle for talking to him while he stands on a balcony a safe distance away (instead of the throne room).

Of course if you or your race has a strong reputation in one way or another then that would significantly effect all of this. It also depends on culture. If the primary culture in the setting sees giants as part-divine and close to the gods, or outright worthy of worship in their own right, then that changes everything (and the Giant characters should pay points for said social regard/reputation).

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by RedMattis

It does have a sizable (hah) effect on the effectiveness of intimidation.

Absolutely. The question, however, is if other reaction modifiers are meant to be included. With GURPS authors going with "SM is a feature," I suspect not, given I believe overall the realistic effect would be net negative for high SM, net positive for low SM, while GURPS appears to go the other way around, by limiting this to an Intimidation effect. Of course, I may be underestimating the nuance - as you note, people (and animals) are generally going to be less likely to attack a giant and more likely to attack a halfling, which is arguably a reaction bonus for the former and penalty for the latter... but I don't think "They attack" is always the right response for a poor reaction roll, even with belligerent characters (like bandits) - rather, the poor reaction means they'll try to find some way to inconvenience/harm you, if they determine they couldn't take you in a fight (perhaps they are more likely to determine they can't take you in a fight if you're a giant, but that's probably more a function of ST - I doubt many bandits would be inclined to pick a fight with an ST 20 halfling either).

So, tl;dr - I don't think reaction modifiers other than those involved with Intimidation are intended to be part of the "Size Modifier" metatrait, and should need to be paid for separately. Unless you opt to revamp SM into a non-Feature (which I wholeheartedly support), in which case you could certainly include said modifiers in the revised metatrait (in which case you're still paying for them, they're just baked into SM rather than being something you take separately).

Of course, don't forget about the "Eh, That's Just Grug" trait from Nordlondr Folk - it's basically a -80% Limitation (albeit bought as a separate Advantage of appropriate price) on any negative racial reaction modifier, and means anywhere you've established yourself as a legitimate adventurer (details of "establishing yourself" in the referenced book), that Disadvantage no longer applies. OK, so technically it's only applied to Social Stigma (Savage) there, but should be able to apply to any such thing - Social Stigma, Racial Reputation, possibly even Odious Racial Habit (and of course anything you opt to package in with SM).

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by Varyon

Absolutely. The question, however, is if other reaction modifiers are meant to be included. With GURPS authors going with "SM is a feature," I suspect not, given I believe overall the realistic effect would be net negative for high SM, net positive for low SM, while GURPS appears to go the other way around, by limiting this to an Intimidation effect. Of course, I may be underestimating the nuance - as you note, people (and animals) are generally going to be less likely to attack a giant and more likely to attack a halfling, which is arguably a reaction bonus for the former and penalty for the latter... but I don't think "They attack" is always the right response for a poor reaction roll, even with belligerent characters (like bandits) - rather, the poor reaction means they'll try to find some way to inconvenience/harm you, if they determine they couldn't take you in a fight (perhaps they are more likely to determine they can't take you in a fight if you're a giant, but that's probably more a function of ST - I doubt many bandits would be inclined to pick a fight with an ST 20 halfling either).

That's the the thing - being less likely to attack a big guy you don't like than a little one isn't a change to your reaction roll's outcome in terms of the quality of result ('Bad' remains 'Bad', etc.), but in how that result manifests. A bad reaction to the giant might mean running and getting the local law involved, while the halfling you might decide to deal with yourself. Or for a storekeeper they throw the halfling out, but the giant they 'merely' overcharge many times more than usual (because they're too scared to try something that might get physical).

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Rupert

That's the the thing - being less likely to attack a big guy you don't like than a little one isn't a change to your reaction roll's outcome in terms of the quality of result ('Bad' remains 'Bad', etc.), but in how that result manifests. A bad reaction to the giant might mean running and getting the local law involved, while the halfling you might decide to deal with yourself. Or for a storekeeper they throw the halfling out, but the giant they 'merely' overcharge many times more than usual (because they're too scared to try something that might get physical).

Yes but, again, that's not necessarily a direct result of SM - you'd probably have the same reaction (getting someone else involved, overcharging rather than throwing them out, etc) against an ST 20 halfling, or one who is armed and clearly knows his/her way around the weapon, or whatever. It's a general "this foe is too much for me," which can apply to anything... although it's probably more likely to apply to a giant (then again, one can argue that's just the intimidation bonus playing a roll - a "passive intimidation check," as it were). Interestingly, this can actually be detrimental to the giant - the person attacking you (typically) gives you legal justification to fight back that you wouldn't have if it were the town guards or whoever (provided the halfling is roughly as good at fighting as the giant), and getting thrown out of the shop means you go elsewhere (or acquire what you need by other means) rather than overpaying (if you lack the skills to recognize you're being markedly overcharged).

[Anthony]

A lot of the problem with the bonus to intimidation is that intimidation is problematic in games anyway, because what does it actually do? Backing down because the risk isn't worth the payoff isn't intimidation, it's just rational risk assessment by the target, so presumably intimidation must be something else.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Anthony

A lot of the problem with the bonus to intimidation is that intimidation is problematic in games anyway, because what does it actually do? Backing down because the risk isn't worth the payoff isn't intimidation, it's just rational risk assessment by the target, so presumably intimidation must be something else.

Intimidation is the skill of convincing the opposing party that the risk isn't worth the payoff, in cases where that isn't already abundantly clear. Not everybody is great at risk assessment... and of course there can be a degree of dishonesty involved, making yourself seem stronger, more vicious, less sane, etc (whatever you guess/determine the target would respond to the most) than you really are (including outright bluffing about what you'll do if they don't acquiesce, although GURPS may put that more under the purview of Fast Talk, I'm not certain where the divide is located). As implied above, I feel it involves determining what sort of intimidation the target will respond best to, and then emphasizing/exaggerating your capabilities in that field.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by Varyon

Interestingly, this can actually be detrimental to the giant - the person attacking you (typically) gives you legal justification to fight back that you wouldn't have if it were the town guards or whoever (provided the halfling is roughly as good at fighting as the giant), and getting thrown out of the shop means you go elsewhere (or acquire what you need by other means) rather than overpaying (if you lack the skills to recognize you're being markedly overcharged).

Indeed - sometimes it'll be better, sometimes worse, and sometimes much the same. Hence it's a 0-point feature of size.

[seasalt]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

Depends on you games setting

In a low TL melee based setting high SM allows for cheap ST (so more HP), more inherent Reach, and quite likely longer weapons adding more reach on top of that. That ls a lot of advantage in Melee. If you have grappling it helps and if you use the TG supplement high SM grapplers can be downright terrifying! If you have magic I think higher S make it more costly to effect with some spells (I don't really do magic so not 100% sure)


But yeah run a WW2 campaign and you are a target

If we're talking some kind of weird-tech WWII where it's possible to make SM+1 or +2 soldiers with massively superhuman strength (in the 20s or 30s), I think they could be a viable sort of 'super soldier'. The main reason being that it would be viable for them to wear thick enough body armor to have reliable protection from rifle rounds.

Per the 'high tech low-tech armor' rules, we could get some DR 18 heavy plate armor made from modern steel covering the torso, upper arms and all of the legs for about 70 and a half pounds. That's zero encumbrance for some kind of muscle-bound super-serum freak with a strength of 20, and makes him impervious to rifle rounds from further than 1100 yards. Even at close range, something like 1 in 3 rifle bullets will deflect off of it.

If we put TL6 "composite body armor" underneath it (and I don't see why we couldn't, it's a type of light, flexible armor that should be able to layer under rigid armor), that makes for DR of 22 on the torso and limbs! That means that, on average, even a rifle bullet hitting the torso will only be dealing 6 damage (counting the wounding modifier), which, for a brute like this, won't even be a major wound. In addition to all this armor, he could carry an M1919 machine gun and 750 rounds of ammo while being only lightly encumbered!

If I was a soldier in some pulp WWII setting, I wouldn't want to fight a platoon of those guys, even if they are a bit easier to hit.