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Old 07-22-2019, 03:05 PM   #1
jackcelso
 
Join Date: May 2015
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Default Shapeshifting - alternate form costs

Hi i need some help with this advantage:

If my original character is 500 points and has template is a 300 points template and i change in a template B that costs 100 points my original character will have to pay 15 point for the alternate form advantage.

Now the question my chacter B must pay 15 + (200*0,9) = 195 in his sheet for be able to transform on the orginal template?

Thanks
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Old 07-22-2019, 06:53 PM   #2
Refplace
 
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Default Re: Shapeshifting - alternate form costs

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackcelso View Post
Hi i need some help with this advantage:

If my original character is 500 points and has template is a 300 points template and i change in a template B that costs 100 points my original character will have to pay 15 point for the alternate form advantage.

Now the question my chacter B must pay 15 + (200*0,9) = 195 in his sheet for be able to transform on the orginal template?

Thanks
No. Ignore the points your character has when figuring out Shapechange, whether Alternate Form or Morph.
Its the racial templates that count.
So if base race template is 300 points than any form that is 300 points or less just costs 15 points per form.
Any form that is in excess of 300 points pays the base cost plus 90% of the higher point template.
The catch or limit to your flexibility is what templates the GM allows. Normally that is racial, though in a Super campaign unique forms are typically allowed. Examples include Shazam, Thor (Donald Blake), Hulk, Miracle Man, etc.
In those examples the human form is the base template and the super form is a unique one.

Edit: On rereading I dont think that clearly answered your question.
Consider Shapechange to be a meta type or external trait.
Your character has 500 points and pays for the Alternate Form ability. That lets you swap out racial templates but each template does not have, nor pay for the Alternate Form advantage.
That make sense?
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Last edited by Refplace; 07-22-2019 at 06:57 PM.
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Old 07-22-2019, 07:20 PM   #3
RyanW
 
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Default Re: Shapeshifting - alternate form costs

You can trade your racial template for another. If the new template costs less than your native template, just pay the 15 points. If the new template costs more, pay fifteen plus 90% of the difference.
Human (template cost 0) that can transform into powerful beast form (template cost 100): [0] for being a human, [15+100*0.9=105] for alternate form.

Elf (template cost 40) that can transform into powerful beast form (template cost 100): [40] for being an Elf, [15+60*0.9=69] for alternate form.

Beast (template cost 100) that can turn into human (template cost 0): [100] for being a beast, [15] for alternate form.
The human that can turn into a beast is cheaper than the others, but he has the most to lose if knocked out, hit with Neutralize, or otherwise forced into his native form.
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Old 07-22-2019, 08:56 PM   #4
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Default Re: Shapeshifting - alternate form costs

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Originally Posted by RyanW View Post
Human (template cost 0) that can transform into powerful beast form (template cost 100): [0] for being a human, [15+100*0.9=105] for alternate form.

Elf (template cost 40) that can transform into powerful beast form (template cost 100): [40] for being an Elf, [15+60*0.9=69] for alternate form.

Beast (template cost 100) that can turn into human (template cost 0): [100] for being a beast, [15] for alternate form.
The human that can turn into a beast is cheaper than the others, but he has the most to lose if knocked out, hit with Neutralize, or otherwise forced into his native form.
Something I noticed when working with Alternate Forms (and I have worked a lot with them) is thats not really a significant difference in overall point costs.
Consider your examples.
Human base AF 105 + Base 0 =105
Elf base AF 69 +base 40 = 109
Beast base AF 15 + base 100 =115
It was an issue I worried about when first working with AF, thinking that a high base race cost was unbalanced compared to say a human with AF. Turns out the difference is usually not that high and doesn't tend to favor a high race cost over a lower one for overall point totals.
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Old 07-22-2019, 11:08 PM   #5
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Default Re: Shapeshifting - alternate form costs

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Originally Posted by Refplace View Post
It was an issue I worried about when first working with AF, thinking that a high base race cost was unbalanced compared to say a human with AF. Turns out the difference is usually not that high and doesn't tend to favor a high race cost over a lower one for overall point totals.
Heh, I was kind of worried the other way, that a low base + high alternate did not get enough cost reduction for the "default back to weak native form" effect. Then I realized any PC would be in their most powerful form almost all the time. The difference between a beast->human and a human->beast is that the human->beast's "can turn into human if really necessary" ability can be unwillingly triggered.
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Old 07-23-2019, 01:04 AM   #6
Refplace
 
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Default Re: Shapeshifting - alternate form costs

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Originally Posted by RyanW View Post
Heh, I was kind of worried the other way, that a low base + high alternate did not get enough cost reduction for the "default back to weak native form" effect. Then I realized any PC would be in their most powerful form almost all the time. The difference between a beast->human and a human->beast is that the human->beast's "can turn into human if really necessary" ability can be unwillingly triggered.
Glad we reached the same math conclusions :)
I think I tend to lean towards the conservative on balance issues and pricing.
Your point is valid and my messages with Kromm on it, most recently in writing the Totem Powers book indicated he feels its basically a 10% Accessibility limitation. Fair value for something that like you said would usually be active, and note it comes with an implied terminal condition.
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Old 07-23-2019, 02:13 AM   #7
coronatiger
 
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Default Re: Shapeshifting - alternate form costs

Remember that enhancements and limitations affect the base cost of the form, only. I.e. the 15 points. So a 100% enhancement would increase the total cost by 15 points, regardless of the relative cost of the alternative form vs the base form.
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Old 07-23-2019, 02:18 AM   #8
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Default Re: Shapeshifting - alternate form costs

Enhancements and limitations within a template (base or alternative) work as usual, though.
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You don't need to spend 100 CP on Status 5 [25] and Multimillionaire [75] to feel like a princess, when Delusion [-10] will do.

Character sheet: Google Drive link (See this thread for details.)

Campaign logs: Chaotic Pioneering / Confessions of a Forked Tongue
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Old 07-23-2019, 01:42 PM   #9
jackcelso
 
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Default Re: Shapeshifting - alternate form costs

Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanW View Post

Beast (template cost 100) that can turn into human (template cost 0): [100] for being a beast, [15] for alternate form.[/INDENT]
My question is in this: Beast with 300 points in total has a racial template of 100 points and is able to turn in a human. The Beast spend 100 for his racial template + 15 for alternate form and 185 in others advantages and atributtes.

The Human is also a 300 points character his racial template is 0 points. So would he have 300 points to spend in skill, advantage etc however he wants or he also have to pay the cost for alternate form 15 +(100*0,9) =105 points and have only 195 to spend in skills, advantages e etc?

Last edited by jackcelso; 07-23-2019 at 01:52 PM.
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Old 07-23-2019, 02:36 PM   #10
a humble lich
 
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Default Re: Shapeshifting - alternate form costs

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackcelso View Post
My question is in this: Beast with 300 points in total has a racial template of 100 points and is able to turn in a human. The Beast spend 100 for his racial template + 15 for alternate form and 185 in others advantages and atributtes.

The Human is also a 300 points character his racial template is 0 points. So would he have 300 points to spend in skill, advantage etc however he wants or he also have to pay the cost for alternate form 15 +(100*0,9) =105 points and have only 195 to spend in skills, advantages e etc?
Only the base form has to buy Alternate form. However, in your example he wouldn't have 300 points to spend in skills advantages, etc, because some of that is being spent by the beast template. Alternate form replaces the beast template the character has with the human template--all other skills, advantages etc remain the same. This means when the character is in human form, he effectively only has 185 points (minus the cost of the beast template and alternate form). In some games and for some characters, a GM might allow a PC to create a human plus template to allow the character to access some of those lost points.

An example character sheet could look something like this:

ST 12 [20]
DX 13 [60]
IQ 10
HT 12 [20]

Advantages
Beast Template [100]
Alternate Form (Human) [15]
Mundane Advantages [35]

Skills
Useful skills [50]

As a beast, the character would have the listed attributes, mundane advantages, and useful skills, plus all of the abilities the beast template gives. As a human, the character would have the same listed attributes, mundane advantages, and useful skills, plus all the abilities the human template gives (which in this case is nothing). If the character becomes unconscious while human he will revert to a beast. It would be cheaper to make human the base form, but in then the character would revert to human if he becomes unconscious in beast form, which could cause problems.
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