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Old 02-12-2013, 04:36 PM   #31
Anthony
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
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Default Re: [Magic] Enchanter Wages

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen View Post
And what's the world impact of that?
Depends on the number you set. Mostly, it lets you figure out what stuff costs without getting into deep economic simulations.

Incidentally, an issue with enchanter wages I didn't consider: it takes a mage a minimum of 200 hours (25 days) to learn a spell, and for a more typical enchanter (say, IQ 12, magery 2) it takes 8x as long (200 days). This isn't all that relevant to slow and sure enchantment, if you're going to spend 600 days enchanting something, an added 200 days learning isn't that big a deal, but the opportunity costs become substantial for quick and dirty enchantment. Using the vanilla rules, 200 days enchanter time is worth $6,600, and on average a Q&D enchanter is paid $10 per casting (about $10/hr; his S&S rate is $4/hr, so $6 bonus), meaning he breaks even after 1,100 castings. No enchanter will bother unless either (a) he can expect a fairly high demand (~100x/year is a minimum), (b) he can expect to make money off of his 15 skill in some other way, or (c) he's charging more than the listed cost. Worse, the master enchanter needs a skill at (14+circle size), costing an average of 100 days per +1 circle size, and his time is also higher value, so we should really bump things a bit. This basically means that, for enchantments with a demand of fewer than 200 per year, the price will be higher. Higher enchanter wages don't affect this all that much, since both costs will increase.

So, what enchantments are that desirable? Not that many unless you're serving a very large area. Most mage tools are limited by the rate at which new mages are trained (if we assume 0.1% academic mages, the number of academic mages trained per year is probably about 20 per million, with a total of 50 per million counting all types of mages) and might be inherited (though loss rate is probably at least a few percent per year, making up for it), so unless mages need more than one of them, or you're supplying a nation of ten million or so, or there's no-one whose made them before and therefore you have a virgin market, mage tools are unlikely. Weapons and armor are somewhat more promising, as they are both less durable and the number of armed men might be higher (assuming men-at-arms can afford enchantments), but a number of cheap enchantments will have issues. For example, the demand for seek earth or seek water is probably just not high enough.

Last edited by Anthony; 02-12-2013 at 04:44 PM.
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Old 02-12-2013, 05:49 PM   #32
cosmicfish
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Default Re: [Magic] Enchanter Wages

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Originally Posted by Kalzazz View Post
Well, I personally would like a setting where 'sitting here in my house building stuff' is not the best way for PCs to get more powerful compared to going out and going on adventures

Left to their own devices players will want to make oodles of money and power by doing boring mundane things that make me want to tear my hair out, such as building stuff and selling it, or doing speculative trading, or whatever
This is ALWAYS an option in a game world, and most NPC's will follow that path. Certainly, the path to "oodles of money and power" in the real world lies not in "going on adventures" but instead by "doing boring mundane things". Why should a fantasy or sci-fi setting be different?

Now, if your players really DO want to sit around and build stuff and make money, then just tell them to find a different GM because that is not the type of game you are able and willing to run. Otherwise, it should not be a big deal - most players will jump at whatever scenario your throw at them, and if necessary enchantment is always fragile enough that you can interrupt it to force players into action.
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Old 02-12-2013, 06:14 PM   #33
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Default Re: [Magic] Enchanter Wages

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
There are such systems in Thaumatology.
I am aware, although most of those systems are either methods for scaling the existing system or invoking special circumstances (such as stadiums full of people or human sacrifice). I would prefer some structures that were completely alternative.

For example, my settings generally involve few circumstances were more than a couple of competent mages would tie themselves to the same project for more than a few weeks at most. The current system, which requires either a large number of mages and/or that high-powered mages live the lives of monks simply does not fit with this system. A large project means that the enchanter is essentially unavailable to the world for years on end!

What I would prefer is a formula that would figure in the required power, the daily power available, skill rolls against power (perhaps penalized by total number of enchantments on the item), bonuses/penalties for various factors, and produce a variable length of time for the enchantment. And I would prefer a formula that allows 1-3 enchanters to produce items in a reasonable time but with results appropriate to their abilities.

Even with the rules in Thaumaturgy, an "ordinary" wizard would take 68 years to enchant that "ignores DR" sword, but a highly skilled Magery 3 wizard would still take more than 2 years... and I cannot for the life of me see that happening. Especially since it is likely that said sword would likely have other enchantments as well. Would a wizard of that power really spend that long as a hermit to produce a weapon that profits him relatively little and has little or no personal utility?
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Old 02-12-2013, 07:46 PM   #34
Anthony
 
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Default Re: [Magic] Enchanter Wages

Here's an interesting idea for a perk:

Reckless Ritualist: you may cast ritual magic and enchantment with a skill as low as 10, and items you enchant will continue functioning until power is reduced to 10.

Not really useful to PCs, but lets you have NPC enchanters without them all being archmages. Also produces a very large number of quirked magic items, which IMO is a feature.
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Old 02-12-2013, 07:51 PM   #35
DemiBenson
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
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Default Re: [Magic] Enchanter Wages

Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmicfish View Post
I am aware, although most of those systems are either methods for scaling the existing system or invoking special circumstances (such as stadiums full of people or human sacrifice). I would prefer some structures that were completely alternative.

For example, my settings generally involve few circumstances were more than a couple of competent mages would tie themselves to the same project for more than a few weeks at most. The current system, which requires either a large number of mages and/or that high-powered mages live the lives of monks simply does not fit with this system. A large project means that the enchanter is essentially unavailable to the world for years on end!

What I would prefer is a formula that would figure in the required power, the daily power available, skill rolls against power (perhaps penalized by total number of enchantments on the item), bonuses/penalties for various factors, and produce a variable length of time for the enchantment. And I would prefer a formula that allows 1-3 enchanters to produce items in a reasonable time but with results appropriate to their abilities.

Even with the rules in Thaumaturgy, an "ordinary" wizard would take 68 years to enchant that "ignores DR" sword, but a highly skilled Magery 3 wizard would still take more than 2 years... and I cannot for the life of me see that happening. Especially since it is likely that said sword would likely have other enchantments as well. Would a wizard of that power really spend that long as a hermit to produce a weapon that profits him relatively little and has little or no personal utility?
So change the rules. Or make up your own.

In my fantasy setting, Threshold mages can put in any amount per hour (for Q&D) or per day (for S&S), but if they exceed Thresh, they risk having the enchantment fail instantly. So powerful mages can produce more items on shorter time scales than their weaker competitors. I also have rules that allow wizards to enchant at any effective skill, not just at 15+.

Thaumatology isn't supposed to be the final word on all possibilities - it's system for building magic systems.
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Old 02-12-2013, 08:04 PM   #36
starslayer
 
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Default Re: [Magic] Enchanter Wages

One of the assumptions I have gone with is that actually reduces the cost of magical items is that the equations are all wrong, and that enchanters one of:
A rare breed of functionally autistic (or other mental disorder) tinkerers. (There pure academic skills lend well to hyperfocus and they end up with skills in the 25+range. Enchanters then hire mages who are attempting to get a knowledge of useful spells, and pay them apprentice pay )
Very large creatures with both the blood casting perk and immense health reserves (like dragons)
Evil/horribly callous/unscrupulous individuals who will happily make use of sacrificial magic to get huge energy reserves

These three factors together mean that basically all magic is made through quick and dirty up until about the 4800 energy range (beyond that requires the casting circle to remain awake for more then 48 hours which is harder), but that neither the $1/energy nor the $25/mage/day assumptions are correct
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Old 02-12-2013, 08:25 PM   #37
simply Nathan
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Default Re: [Magic] Enchanter Wages

I don't have the file open before me right now, but I managed to use the rules as they were, tweak the master/apprentice/acolyte assumptions a tiny bit, keep Lend Energy in mind, and make Q&D enchantments cost $0.59/thaum and S&S cost $24/thaum.

Always teach Lend Energy first. Children have 10 FP.
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Old 02-12-2013, 08:44 PM   #38
DCB
 
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Default Re: [Magic] Enchanter Wages

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
Nope, a competent mage doesn'tr need to hire anyone to cast Halt Agfing on himself.
Spending the years of study required to pick up another 7 prereqs and another M/VH skill at 15+ has a substantial opportunity cost.

Consider the bare minimum you're requiring for "competent":
* Magery 2
* 2 M/VH skills at 15+
* 1 M/H skill at 15+
* 19 additional M/H or M/VH skills
From a typical enchanter (IQ 11, Magery 2), that's a minimum of 63 points in skills, which is an enormous amount of training and study, comparable to about two PhDs.


Quote:
As a 20pt spell he only needs 1 friend with similar abilities to himself and they cast it on each other as a trade of favors.
Sure, but if mages with Halt Aging are that easy to find, there's every reason to expect the Wealthy merchant to be able to purchase it. The income he could make in the years he wasn't spending on learning that spell will pay for many casting of it.


Quote:
Mages are going to get Halt Againg ahead of people who simply have money.
If there are more "people with money" who want the spell than there are mages willing to provide it, doesn't that argue for a higher income level for the mages? That was the original point, after all.
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Old 02-12-2013, 08:55 PM   #39
DCB
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Default Re: [Magic] Enchanter Wages

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Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
Worse, the master enchanter needs a skill at (14+circle size), costing an average of 100 days per +1 circle size
At best. Realistically -- which is kind of what we're trying to apply here -- training a skill from stat+2 to stat+3 will be much easier than training it from stat+8 to stat+9, if the latter is even feasible.

If we're trying to understand "how would this actually work?" rather than mechanically grinding through the numbers in the book, spell levels at stat+6 or 20+ are going to be almost as rare as skill levels at stat+6 or 20+. As a result, it will take people who by chance are on the extremes of both the IQ and Magery curves (IQ 13-15, Magery 2-4) to lead Q&D circles that can enchant any but the smallest of items.

Last edited by DCB; 02-12-2013 at 09:37 PM.
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Old 02-12-2013, 09:48 PM   #40
Sunrunners_Fire
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Default Re: [Magic] Enchanter Wages

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Originally Posted by Kenneth Latrans View Post
Always teach Lend Energy first. Children have 10 FP.
Lend Energy requires Magery 1 or Empathy. (Pay especial attention to the bold word.) The general assumption is that there are (significantly) more Magery 0 people than there are Magery 1 people.
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