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Old 05-11-2014, 11:34 PM   #31
malloyd
 
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Default Re: Ultratech Sleep/Paralysis Agents

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Originally Posted by Nereidalbel View Post
If you could convert the various chemicals (primarily melatonin) that trigger sleep into an aerosol, you'd have a short-ranged, but effective, means of knocking people out.
Or maybe you wouldn't, since you'd mostly need to get them into the brain, and for whatever reason there is a blood/brain barrier that a great many drugs cross poorly or not at all.
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Old 05-12-2014, 04:45 AM   #32
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Default Re: Ultratech Sleep/Paralysis Agents

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A hostage who was inside the building, and presumably did not have a gas mask, was able to make a call out after recognizing that a gas attack was occurring, and remained conscious until some time during the actual assault. So yes, for at least parts of the building half an hour is an accurate time estimate.
Or maybe he had a high HT+Fitness+Hard to Subdue and/or was lucky. E.g. if he had a HT+Fitness+Hard to Subdue score of 13-15, he could last 3-10 times longer than normal people.
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Old 05-12-2014, 04:49 AM   #33
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Default Re: Ultratech Sleep/Paralysis Agents

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That, and treatment exists for our TL7 gas, but, the doctors weren't told what was causing the harm until there were a lot of dead people. Those Cyclic poisons are a real pain when doctors don't know what will neutralize the poison!
Partial agonist/diminishing-returns drugs. That's the sort of qualitative, not quantitative, difference that shows that it's TL9, not TL7-8.
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Old 05-12-2014, 11:49 AM   #34
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Default Re: Ultratech Sleep/Paralysis Agents

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
Or maybe he had a high HT+Fitness+Hard to Subdue and/or was lucky. E.g. if he had a HT+Fitness+Hard to Subdue score of 13-15, he could last 3-10 times longer than normal people.
Or just a quirk unusual biochemistry like me. That gas was an opiate derivative wasn't it?
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Old 05-12-2014, 11:58 AM   #35
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Default Re: Ultratech Sleep/Paralysis Agents

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Or just a quirk unusual biochemistry like me. That gas was an opiate derivative wasn't it?
It was supposedly a Fentanyl-based drug and that m has opiate-like properties.

Fentanyl is mostly used in surgery as an anesthetic with propofol but it's the propofol that does the rapid knocking out.

For an injectable drug you want something with the speed of propofol but without he fatal side-effects.

Also, al discussion about breathable gasses may be off-base. The stuff in UT is all labeled as aerosolized liquids with skin penetrating or contact properties.
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Old 05-12-2014, 01:17 PM   #36
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Default Re: Ultratech Sleep/Paralysis Agents

I've taken nearly every pill based opiate prescribed by a doctor that didn't quite understand the concept of near immunity to opiates.
My brother was given fentanyl in the hospital but all it did was let him sleep normally, and he doesn't have near my horrible tolerance.

I hope that someone develops a radically different heavy duty painkiller sedative if I ever need to have surgery again. Being different can really suck.
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Old 05-12-2014, 09:03 PM   #37
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Default Re: Ultratech Sleep/Paralysis Agents

If you have the luxury of evacuating the targets of the drug more or less immediately, there are countless chemicals that cause unconsciousness some time before they cause death, and which are harmless in the short term as long as the targets are removed to fresh air in time. Some of those are carcinogenic, of course, but even nitrogen or CO2 will work within minutes.

Nanotech at "grey goo" levels can do whatever you want. Temporarily and reversibly block certain nerves causing unconsciousness? Sure, why the hell not?

Strong paralytic agents, roughly similar to nerve gas, are not implausible; the problem is not paralyzing the lungs and heart into the bargain. But TL10 is probably enough to handwave some explanation involving tailored enzymes, or something.
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Old 05-12-2014, 11:17 PM   #38
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Default Re: Ultratech Sleep/Paralysis Agents

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If you have the luxury of evacuating the targets of the drug more or less immediately, there are countless chemicals that cause unconsciousness some time before they cause death, and which are harmless in the short term as long as the targets are removed to fresh air in time. Some of those are carcinogenic, of course, but even nitrogen or CO2 will work within minutes.
Note too that with gas agents, a lot depends on the situation. For ex, if you have a neutralizing agent available that renders the first gas harmless, you can feed in the first, wait for it to take effect, then flood in the second to neutralize the first before they get too much. Or if the air supply is controllable, you can pump in fresh air to drive out the first gas after the critical period for unconsciousness. But it's very situation dependent.

But the real bitch for a realistic unconsciousness/paralytic agent is the differing resistance of individuals, as others have noted. Some people in GURPS terms just have high or low basic HT, and even a person with otherwise low HT might be naturally resistant to a given drug.

Likewise, if some people in the groups haven't eaten or slept in days, or are already sick, they'll be a lot more vulnerable to overdose than others who are well-fed and well-rested, everything else being equal. A 150 kg healthy 30 year old male is likely to need a substantially higher dose of any given drug to get the same effects than a 60 kg 60 year old woman. OTOH, if the latter happens to have a natural resistance, and the former a low basic HT, the effect could be reversed. Children can react very differently than adults, even more than differences in mass/etc would indicate. The very elderly are also going to be different. A dose that is safe for a given man at 40 might well kill him at 10 or 80.

Gas agents are vulnerable to air currents. If I happen to be in a corner of the room where there's a current away from me, I might get a smaller dose of the gas than everybody else just because of my location, or a bigger one if I'm somewhere else.

If I'm already taking some particular medicine that interacts with the knockout/paralytic agent, I might end up far worse off (more likely) or it's also unlikely but not impossible that the interaction might help me out, reducing the effect.

Fast, reliable killing is far, far easier than fast, reliable unconciousness or paralysis, when dealing with a group.
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Old 05-13-2014, 05:46 PM   #39
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Default Re: Ultratech Sleep/Paralysis Agents

I really appreciate the excellent discussion on this, thanks everyone.

I'm curious, do people agree with Ultratech that gases or aerosols are the way to go or should injections be a legitimate contender?

How about the effects of minor genetic engineering? It would make these agents less effective objectively but cutting off the bottom of HT through taboo traits and some degree of regularization of responses might make them safer.
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Old 05-13-2014, 06:02 PM   #40
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Default Re: Ultratech Sleep/Paralysis Agents

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Originally Posted by Sindri View Post
I'm curious, do people agree with Ultratech that gases or aerosols are the way to go or should injections be a legitimate contender?
Realistically, injections give you much better dose control (though that only helps much if you know the right dose in the first place) but are rarely practical to use under combat conditions.
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How about the effects of minor genetic engineering?
Depends whether the engineering produces uniformity of traits. If you've got a bunch of clones, you can test on one of them and have a pretty good idea of what will work on all of them, which is handy (there aren't really game mechanics for this; something like 'when using chemical agents on clones, roll 2d for all the clones, and an additional 1d per clone, instead of 3d per clone' would probably work).
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