Redundent advantages?

[maximara]

I was working though a conversion of the D&D 3.x Ooze category and something occurred to me.

Are Immunity to Mind Control [30], Indomitable [15], and Unfazeable [15] redundant with IQ 0 [-200]? I mean in theory you could have a "smart" Black pudding (IQ 1) so those advantages would make sense.

[David Johnston2]

I wouldn't say Oozes are immune to mind control. I'd say that if they have any intelligence it's just too weird for normal mind control to work on it. You'd need a control fungus effect.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

I wouldn't say Oozes are immune to mind control. I'd say that if they have any intelligence it's just too weird for normal mind control to work on it. You'd need a control fungus effect.

Interesting as D&D expressly states "An ooze possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry) — Mindless: No Intelligence score, and immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects)."

More over DF Monsters 2 Icky Goo states "Most goo has IQ 0. The IQ 1+ kinds are no easier to control, influence, or scare; they have Immunity to Mind Control, Indomitable, and Unfazeable. "

[Christopher R. Rice]

In GURPS you generally get what you pay for. An IQ 0 beast without the traits you mentioned would just fail on rolls to be dominated, feared, influenced, etc.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Christopher R. Rice

In GURPS you generally get what you pay for. An IQ 0 beast without the traits you mentioned would just fail on rolls to be dominated, feared, influenced, etc.

So a IQ 0 being can be mind controlled even though there is no mind to control? That sounds...weird.

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by maximara

So a IQ 0 being can be mind controlled even though there is no mind to control? That sounds...weird.

Yeah. The idea is anyone could Control or Possess it. Again, you get what you pay for. I don't see a GM or designer not adding the things you listed because it makes sense for an ooze to have.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by maximara

So a IQ 0 being can be mind controlled even though there is no mind to control? That sounds...weird.

It's going to have something that passes for a nervous system, which means that it can be affected by things that manipulate its neural responses.

GURPS assumes, a) it's going to have something like a fear response, b) it's going to be susceptible to some sort of influence skills, if only Animal Control or Intimidation, c) its neurological responses can be manipulated by mental psi, magic, etc. attacks. d) in the absence of boosted Per and Will scores, it's functionally incapable of perceiving its surrounding in a meaningful way, or exerting any sort of self-motivation or resistance to Will-based attacks.

Negating a = Unfazeable. Its neural responses only react in response to actual physical damage, rather than perceived danger.

Negating b = Indomitable. Its neural responses are entirely self-controlled and can't be affected by external behavioral manipulation.

Negating c = High Will &/or Immunity (Mental Influence). Psis, mages, etc. can't "get a lock" on its neurological processes to manipulate them.

Alternately, this could be take as a Feature (Only Susceptible to Spells & Powers which affect Fungi). That would set it up to be easily manipulated by people with the right powers or spells, but otherwise immune to Mind Control, Telecommunication, and Body Control, Communication & Empathy, and Mind Control spells.

Negating d = boosted Per and Will scores. Possibly adding sensory disadvantages like Bad Sight or Blind if its primary senses are something other than sight. Deafness, No Sense of Smell/Taste (Limitation: Smell Only), Vibration Sense and Discriminatory Taste (Only to detect & follow ground-based chemical trails) would make sense for something modeled on real life slime molds.

[Kromm]

IQ 0 doesn't mean "mindless." It means "nonsentient." And that means "cannot learn skills." A nonsentient being can still have an identifiable brain and nervous system . . . just not enough of one to learn usefully.

Remember that the attribute scale has a granularity of 1, and that IQ 1 is as smart as a fish (even sharks, which are smart fish, get IQ 2). Lots of insects and things with brains necessarily have IQ 0 to fit onto the scale.

So, even IQ 0 creatures can have to worry about fear and influence. If you don't want that, you have to add traits that remove those concerns.

[RyanW]

Originally Posted by Kromm

So, even IQ 0 creatures can have to worry about fear and influence. If you don't want that, you have to add traits that remove those concerns.

On the other hand "Affected by Plant magic instead of Mind/Body magic" is likely a valid 0 point feature, but on the other other hand not all mind affecting powers have the People/Beast/Plant distinction built in. So...

I lost track of what point I was trying to make.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by RyanW

but on the other other hand not all mind affecting powers have the People/Beast/Plant distinction built in. So...

The dividing line might be sponges which are animals with absolutely no nervous system. On the other side of the line might be several microscopic things that nonetheless do have simple neural nets.