the almost (x3) v constantly (x4) FoA gap for Summonable Allies

[Plane]

B36 has the FOA modifiers

B38 mentions this about taking Summonable for allies:

On a failure, you cannot attempt to summon him again for one full day.

This seems like a pretty huge gap in functionality.

If you took a 100% point ally (base 5 cost) the difference would be 15 points (15 or less) vs 20 points (always) doubled to 30 or 40 for the +100% summonable...

If you just took B116's Unreliable for 8 or less (-40%) then this would reduce 20 to 12 points, but since you wouldn't have the one-day embargo you could in theory just brute-force (once per second) until you passed the roll at the cost of some FP, so long as you kept above 3 FP.

"If I fail I can't try again for an entire day" seems like it would fall somewhere between...

1) Limited Use (B112: -40% except that's one SUCCESS per day)

2) Increased Immunity 3 (PU8p14: -30% except that's limited to failures which occur via a Quick Contest and only vs one specific target)

I'm wondering if something like these should maybe apply like limitations to the Summonable enhancement to make it cheaper, since that's a pretty big drawback.

The first alternative option for Summonable was seen in 2006/2008 (P41/T198) which eventually got a distinct named "Conjured" in Jan2010/Dec2013 (DF9p4/Z29) which basically had to do with trading off ally loyalty (you make a reaction roll) and education (no long-term education/training) for replaceability (you only need to wait 1 day to get a new ally if they die, not whatever-the-GM-decides)

A second alternative option was discussed in August 2010 by Kromm though which seems very interesting and useful. It appears to be a variant on the classic Summonable since the ally dying is discussed as a problem, but gives clearer parameters as to arrival time and duration.

http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread...55#post1029855

Originally Posted by Kromm

The intent is that Ally (Summonable) works like any other switchable advantage, which by default requires one second.

I wouldn't worry about travel times from other dimensions . . . these and creatures conjured on the spot just go "bamf!" and appear.

..

Technically, abilities of powers use the default time for all advantages that lack specified durations: 10 seconds (p. B101). In this case, a minute seems fairer.

..

If you can summon an Ally with a Concentrate maneuver whenever you need it, as long as it hasn't died, then one minute is more than fair. It's basically a "conjure pet" spell that costs no FP, lasts as long as any other combat spell, and has a significant effect on battle. You're trading duration for the capacity to repeat attempts.

If you can summon an Ally once per adventure, as usual with an Ally, and it hangs around until dismissed, then that's fine, too. You're trading off reliability (the roll for it can fail, and if it does, you get nothing out of the advantage for one full dungeon crawl or whatever) and surprise (you can't spring "Oh, and there's a huge demon behind you!" on baddies in combat) for duration.

Just don't try to justify both. It's either a spell-like thing or a social advantage with a significant meta-game aspect to it ("once per adventure").

If I'm interpreting this right, then "capacity for repeat attempts" refers to ignoring the 24-hour-ban on rolling the FOA with extra concentrate maneuvers?

This huge benefit being offset by trading permanent duration for 1 minute... something people might otherwise think they'd need "Maximum Duration" to do.

In the case of FOA "always" you never suffer than 24-hour ban (since it never fails to summon) so the only benefit you would be getting is the instant-arrival.

It makes me wonder if it might be more balanced to use Kromm's 1s/60s baseline (ignoring the classic variations of summonable/conjured) and build from there, as it seems like the only way to get clear "time to arrival" mechanics.

To get delayed-arrival from an "instant" baseline, we could either extend prep (Takes Extra Time or Immediate Preparation Required) or maybe use the "Onset" limitation?

A third approach might be, if allowing allies to be summoned in a hex other than your own (not sure if that needs Ranged +40%) to allow the Inaccurate limitation, in which case you might "miss" and summon an ally in an inconvenient spot which creates a travel time delay for them to move from where you mistargeted them to where you intend them to be.

B105's "Drifting" or "Mobile" wouldn't really make sense for Allies usually (they'd follow their own rules for movement once they arrive) but maybe if you took these on an "Onset" ally then your initially targeted position for the ally's arrival could change?

[Balor Patch]

I'll point out that the 24 hour ban doesn't apply to FOA rolls, just summoning rolls. This may be the same thing, but maybe the Demon Cat who is ignoring your summons likes to "hunt" mice in the barn and could be persuaded if you walked over with snacks.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Balor Patch

I'll point out that the 24 hour ban doesn't apply to FOA rolls, just summoning rolls. This may be the same thing, but maybe the Demon Cat who is ignoring your summons likes to "hunt" mice in the barn and could be persuaded if you walked over with snacks.

with non-summonable allies I think you roll once per adventure (at start) rather than day based on what B36 says

Game Time +0% changes "per session" to "per week" so it might be monthly if it's per adventure?

Being able to try each day for the ally makes them a lot more available in that case (30x as often?) but I guess that's why it's a 100% enhancement.