DR: Non-Flexible Tough Skin & 0

[kirbwarrior]

Often when I'm making a character I realize that Tough Skin makes sense for one large part of the limitation; it doesn't stop contact. However, it doesn't always make sense to include flexible in it. Namely, the Body Of templates seem like they should have the hard DR they have but that DR wouldn't make sense to stop contact abilities. Would it make sense to have 'Hard Skin' be -20%? Is my reasoning at all meaningful, or did I just miss something on how things work?

I vaguely remember somewhere that something has DR0 and I want to say it is shins. I also remember that the reason for this is that some techniques care about having any amount of DR. In my mind, DR0 represents having DR that is less than the discrete amount of damage in GURPS but is still DR. Does anyone know what I'm talking about? Is this just me misremembering something?

Thank you ahead of time.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

Often when I'm making a character I realize that Tough Skin makes sense for one large part of the limitation; it doesn't stop contact. However, it doesn't always make sense to include flexible in it. Namely, the Body Of templates seem like they should have the hard DR they have but that DR wouldn't make sense to stop contact abilities. Would it make sense to have 'Hard Skin' be -20%? Is my reasoning at all meaningful, or did I just miss something on how things work?

I think it's a popular option to have Tough Skin split into Flexible (listed distinctly) and something else worth 20% (someone came up with a name, I forget what)

Also probably popular to split Reflexive into Reduced Time 1 +20% and I guess just reducing Reflexibe to +20% but only available to free-action instant abilities.

Tough Skin including Flexible is supposedly how Skull DR functions (based on the design of the perk "Thin Skull") which makes sense in terms of contact (skin is atop the skull) but not in terms of "Hurting Yourself" actually applying when punching skulls in realistic Martial Arts terms (skulls should do that despite only being DR 2 instead of the DR 3 required, meaning they ought to be somehow MORE RIGID than usual for rigid DR 1 or 2, and certainly not flexible)

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

I vaguely remember somewhere that something has DR0 and I want to say it is shins.

Shin's 0 DR is somehow (like the skull) more rigid than normal non-flexible DR of 1 or 2 if using Martial Arts' optional rules, since Hurting Yourself also applies when knocking shins too.

I'm not sure why they didn't just give them 3 DR, if they're worried about longterm imbalances you could just make it ablative or semi-ablative, or hide the DR under 1 HP worth of flesh so these bones only prevent deep extensive injuries but not flesh wounds.

Putting 1 HP atop bone (albeit I'm not sure the rules for that, something similar to Internal DR perhaps?) would actually skirt the need to apply "tough skin" limitations at all to it, since you could have contact agents apply to the flesh, but not the bone beneath if it is ripped off.

Bones are alive though so contact agents should probably still work even if the flesh is ripped off. Just not for skeletons and stuff since they're magically animated dead brittle bones lacking a blood supply.

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

I also remember that the reason for this is that some techniques care about having any amount of DR. In my mind, DR0 represents having DR that is less than the discrete amount of damage in GURPS but is still DR. Does anyone know what I'm talking about? Is this just me misremembering something?

I can't personally remember DR 0 meaning anything distinct from "no DR".

Less-than-discrete DR is an idea I've always loved though, DR in 0.1 increments works fine if you are willing to track damage and HP in 0.1 increments. Going more than one decimal place is way too crunchy even for me though.

The 5/level price of DR could work out to 1/level of 0.2 increments. If you're willing to deal with decimals of character points (as in 3e, and pretty much what Dabbler perk does: it also allows more specific character values if you aren't attached to rounding to whole numbers, and want to round to 1 decimal place instead) then 1/2 a point (0.5cp) could buy 0.1 increments of normal DR and 0.1 cp could buy 0.1 increments of ablative DR.

When using the study rules on B292 for buying advantages (normally intended for skills but there are some cases where it's applied to advantages instead) 200 hours buys 1 character point's worth, so it could make sense to allow 20 hours to earn 0.1 cp worth.

To deal with Ablative DR (already -80%, can't take further discounts) for specific body parts (more limitations) and/or which only works one certain damage types (more limitations) I also like the idea of an "increased protection" enhancement, where whatever the enhancement is worth, you get that much more DR than you purchased. So +100% enhancement to get x2 the DR your base points purchase, for example. This creates incentive to create highly limited low-use DR for unique situations. It would however require separate notation of final post-multiplier DR apart from the levels of base ability your base price is based upon.

[Varyon]

It's not so much that shins have DR 0, it's that they're harder than their DR implies, as are skulls - specifically, when using "Harsh Realism for Unarmed Fighters" (MA124), they're hard enough to trigger "Hurting Yourself," despite being below the threshold that normally requires. If you want a character who benefits from this effect over their whole body, despite lacking sufficient rigid DR, I'd just call it a Perk (Hard Body or similar).

As for Tough Skin that lacks Flexible, as Plane notes you can extrapolate a -20% Limitation that would have this effect; I call it Subcutaneous, others have various names. Note this can also be appropriate even if the character's protective skin isn't rigid, if you want it to protect against Blunt Trauma.

[kirbwarrior]

Oh, the split has already been discussed, nice, thank you. I wasn't quite certain if Flexible was exactly half of Tough Skin's worth or not, even though the math says it is.

As for the skull and shin, would 'Hardened' in anyway apply here? I also love the perk idea of having a hard but no DR body.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

As for the skull and shin, would 'Hardened' in anyway apply here? I also love the perk idea of having a hard but no DR body.

Nah, Hardened is just "resists armor divisors," and shouldn't have any add-on effects, although it's hardly going to break the game if you have it let low-DR apply the Hurting Yourself rules against attackers.

[Say, it isn't that bad!]

Originally Posted by Varyon

Nah, Hardened is just "resists armor divisors," and shouldn't have any add-on effects, although it's hardly going to break the game if you have it let low-DR apply the Hurting Yourself rules against attackers.

For specifically DR0, I would think Hardened would expand the range of Armour Divisor weapons that it counts as DR0 against.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Say, it isn't that bad!

For specifically DR0, I would think Hardened would expand the range of Armour Divisor weapons that it counts as DR0 against.

Seeing as 0 divided by anything is still 0, I fail to see a distinction; of course, we could also say everything that is DR 0 (which costs [0]) is infinitely Hardened anyway, as [0] multiplied by anything is... also still [0]. Again, the DR 0 of shins is unimportant here, rather the fact shins are harder than their lack of DR implies is what matters.

[Say, it isn't that bad!]

Originally Posted by Varyon

Seeing as 0 divided by anything is still 0, I fail to see a distinction; of course, we could also say everything that is DR 0 (which costs [0]) is infinitely Hardened anyway, as [0] multiplied by anything is... also still [0]. Again, the DR 0 of shins is unimportant here, rather the fact shins are harder than their lack of DR implies is what matters.

There is a difference, as you noted, between the DR0 of something like shins, and the DR0 of, say, the vitals.

[kirbwarrior]

Originally Posted by Say, it isn't that bad!

There is a difference, as you noted, between the DR0 of something like shins, and the DR0 of, say, the vitals.

That's part of how I see 'DR0' and 'no DR' as different things, but the talk about certain body parts being harder than DR suggests seems important itself.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Say, it isn't that bad!

There is a difference, as you noted, between the DR0 of something like shins, and the DR0 of, say, the vitals.

No, there isn't. There is a difference between the fact the Shins are treated as hard enough for Hurting Yourself to apply, while the Vitals (and indeed anywhere else other than Skull) are not, but that has nothing to do with DR.

If some build gives a character an unarmed attack with armor divisor, but where failing to drop DR below 3 causes Hurting Yourself to apply, I guess you could treat Shins/Skull as DR 3, so that any divisor would reduce them, and in that case there could be cause to allow for Hardened to play a role. For the Skull, this is just Hardened applied to its base DR 2; for the Shins, I'd say a Perk would be sufficient to count as infinitely Hardened in this respect. I really don't see this coming up, however, as "Unarmed strike with Armor Divisor" and "Breaking your hand punching something too hard" don't seem like they belong in the same setting, let alone on the same character (the only way I'd see the latter happening, it would be a justification for a Critical Failure that crippled the hand).