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Old 07-16-2018, 10:31 AM   #1
phayman53
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Default Martial Arts style for [Banestorm] Knights of St. George of the Dragon

I am wondering about a martial arts style appropriate for the Caithness knightly order the Knights of St. George of the Dragon. The reason I bring it up is that Martial Arts: Yrth Fighting Styles says that the Caithness knights favor Late Medieval Knightly Mounted Combat as apposed to the Megalan High Medieval Knightly Mounted Combat. This is because Caithness Chivalry demands dismounting to fight an opponent who is unhorsed or on foot. Megalan knights don't care.

That said, it seems to me that one of the jobs of the Knights of St. George of the Dragon is to defend Caithness against monstrous threats (hence, their founder was a dragon slayer x2 before being killed by a third!). Since a lot of monsters are strong enough to make even heavy armor somewhat unreliable as a primary defense, it would seem to me that the Late Medieval Knightly Mounted Combat Style, which uses two-handed weapons instead of a shield, would not be ideal.

So, what change might a knightly order still interested in Chivalry make to their combat style in order to still be effective against monstrous threats? Would they simply go back to High Medieval Knightly Mounted Combat? Would they add elements of say, Viking Spear Fighting? Train in crossbows to fight monsters who don't get the benefits of Chivalry because they are already vastly more powerful than individual humans?

Also, I have not done much human vs. powerful monsters in GURPS, so I am not quite sure from play experience what is effective. Insight from a game mechanical perspective would be helpful.

Thanks!
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Old 07-16-2018, 10:42 AM   #2
phayman53
 
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Default Re: Martial Arts style for [Banestorm] Knights of St. George of the Dragon

One other thing, are there mechanics for using a shield, especially a large shield, as cover against a large area attack like a dragon's breath weapon? While not strictly realistic, shields could be made fire resistant and it certainly is a fantasy trope for knights vs. dragons.

Maybe a special dodge and drop, but using block instead?
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Old 07-16-2018, 06:37 PM   #3
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Default Re: Martial Arts style for [Banestorm] Knights of St. George of the Dragon

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Originally Posted by phayman53 View Post
I am wondering about a martial arts style appropriate for the Caithness knightly order the Knights of St. George of the Dragon. The reason I bring it up is that Martial Arts: Yrth Fighting Styles says that the Caithness knights favor Late Medieval Knightly Mounted Combat as apposed to the Megalan High Medieval Knightly Mounted Combat. This is because Caithness Chivalry demands dismounting to fight an opponent who is unhorsed or on foot. Megalan knights don't care.



Thanks!
Explain to me how Caithness wins when every pursuit is going to be automatically disrupted?
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Old 07-16-2018, 09:59 PM   #4
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Default Re: Martial Arts style for [Banestorm] Knights of St. George of the Dragon

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Explain to me how Caithness wins when every pursuit is going to be automatically disrupted?
The full code of chivalry doesn't usually apply to open warfare. It only does if both sides are chivalrous, but in that case it would be more of a battle of champions with even sides of knights fighting in a melee. The winner would take the field, etc. Obviously this would not apply against Megalos or orc raiders.

The normal place for this kind of chivalry to apply is single combat or small engagements between a few knights.
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Old 07-16-2018, 10:24 PM   #5
ericthered
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Default Re: Martial Arts style for [Banestorm] Knights of St. George of the Dragon

Every time I've tried to build troops especially for killing monsters, they've come off as exceptionally unknightly.

For most large monsters, you want a great big pole arm for 1) keeping it at arm's reach and 2) doing enough damage to kill it quickly. Its also worth remembering that a shield doesn't do much good against something like a charging rhinoceros.

Trips and traps tend to be exceptionally useful against monsters, as they won't have the intelligence of a human foe. Pits, nets, and herding tactics (even if its the equivalent of waving a cap at a bull) stand out here, as do walls, fences, and other advantageous terrain.

Horses are useful for mobility rather than shock in most cases, allowing the slayers to keep pace with or outrun their foes.

Ironically, almost none of this is true with a dragon: its faster than the horse, breathes fire so you need the shield, and a pit trap is really hard to pull off against it.
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Old 07-16-2018, 10:26 PM   #6
AlexanderHowl
 
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Default Re: Martial Arts style for [Banestorm] Knights of St. George of the Dragon

And they are strong enough to pick up boulders and drop them on their opponents from great heights.
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Old 07-17-2018, 03:27 AM   #7
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Default Re: Martial Arts style for [Banestorm] Knights of St. George of the Dragon

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Originally Posted by phayman53 View Post
The full code of chivalry doesn't usually apply to open warfare. It only does if both sides are chivalrous, but in that case it would be more of a battle of champions with even sides of knights fighting in a melee. The winner would take the field, etc. Obviously this would not apply against Megalos or orc raiders.

The normal place for this kind of chivalry to apply is single combat or small engagements between a few knights.
I'll go further and point out that dragons would either be considered non-sentient, and therefore code's of honor don't apply to them, or as they have 4 legs they are automatically considered mounted.
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Old 07-17-2018, 07:07 AM   #8
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Default Re: Martial Arts style for [Banestorm] Knights of St. George of the Dragon

I imagine that the majority of dragons that people will face will be hatchlings or young dragons (90% of dragons probably die as hatchlings and another 80% probably die as young dragons). Adolescent dragons have a century under their belt, meaning that they have probably developed their magical knowledge far beyond the majority of human mages, and have probably developed a number of useful magical abilities and mundane skills. Adult dragons are even worse, and I imagine that they end using very intelligent tactics against humanoid opponents.
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Old 07-17-2018, 04:03 PM   #9
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Default Re: Martial Arts style for [Banestorm] Knights of St. George of the Dragon

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Originally Posted by Railstar View Post
However, monstrous threats vary quite a bit, so the fighting style will need to depend on what they are fighting. It might help if you list a few 'typical' monsters you expect them to encounter as a guideline for the appropriate fighting style for them to use.
I think the order would train in dragon slaying, but this would probably be advanced training since it doesn't come up that often. Mostly I would expect them to deal with any basilisks, hostile giants, harpies, minotaurs, nightstalkers, ogres, sphynxes, striders, and trolls that might threaten localities in Caithness. Likewise, as a religious order, they might be the ones to take on Demons, Lycanthropes, and Vampires. Of course, per their description, they are also committed to defending the church of Caithness in general, which would include more normal threats of orc and reptile men bands from the desert as well as invasions from Megalos or al-Wazif.

Many of these monsters listed above can dish out a lot of damage that makes relying on heavy armor without the defense bonus of a shield somewhat risky. Indeed, even reptile men, especially armed with a heavy weapon, can make relying on armor for protection a risky prospect. That is why I am thinking the two-handed weapon focus of Late Medieval Knightly Mounted Combat might be modified to include a shield--at least when fighting really strong monsters. Historically knights discarded shields because armor got good enough to be excellent protection on its own and two-handed weapons were needed to reliably defeat it. But for things with monstrous strength, being able to deflect a blow with a heavy and large shield might stay relevant even with plate armor.

One final note, I do like to use a house rule that makes armor much better against bladed weapons, especially swords and other balanced cutting weapons, while leaving most crushing weapons about as effective against armor as RAW. So for my game that would make swords vs. mid to high DR monsters less than ideal and even spears would have to target weak spots.

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I'll go further and point out that dragons would either be considered non-sentient, and therefore code's of honor don't apply to them, or as they have 4 legs they are automatically considered mounted.
This is an interesting way to look at it. Personally, it seems to me that the GURPS code of chivalry focuses most on a fair fight--even sides and weapons. Since dragons are vastly more powerful than humans, I don't see any reason why a chivalrous knight would feel the need to fight on foot. Indeed, since dragons have an innate ranged breath weapon, powerful ranged weapons don't seem out of the question either.

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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
I imagine that the majority of dragons that people will face will be hatchlings or young dragons (90% of dragons probably die as hatchlings and another 80% probably die as young dragons). Adolescent dragons have a century under their belt, meaning that they have probably developed their magical knowledge far beyond the majority of human mages, and have probably developed a number of useful magical abilities and mundane skills. Adult dragons are even worse, and I imagine that they end using very intelligent tactics against humanoid opponents.
While I agree that most dragons are probably young, I disagree that adolescent ones are necessarily that much more powerful than human mages. That would assume they have the same drive to gain skill and knowledge as quickly as humans do. But, given an indefinitely long lifespan, they may have a more relaxed view of this as long as their skills are sufficient for survival. The one canonical Banestorm dragon we have (listed on pg. 145-146) is 1,200 years old and slightly above average intelligence for a "Monstrous Dragon" as Banestorm defines them. He knows a lot of spells, 55 if I counted right, but all of them only have 1 point in them, so they are either at the 18 (Hard) or 17 (Very Hard) level. This is certainly powerful, but this is a 1,200 year old dragon--the oldest defined age category. If we make him adolescent but change nothing else, all of these spells go down to the 14 and 13 level. By comparison, the "Freelance Wizard" template has about 23 or 24 spells, but all at the 15 level.

Last edited by phayman53; 07-17-2018 at 04:06 PM.
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Old 07-16-2018, 11:04 PM   #10
tanksoldier
 
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Default Re: Martial Arts style for [Banestorm] Knights of St. George of the Dragon

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Originally Posted by jason taylor View Post
Explain to me how Caithness wins when every pursuit is going to be automatically disrupted?
They're mostly talking about individual combat.

However, most medieval battles were set piece affairs. In modern terms they were force oriented, not terrain oriented.

Last edited by tanksoldier; 07-16-2018 at 11:08 PM.
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