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Old 06-29-2022, 08:07 AM   #1
Varyon
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Default Limited Use (Takes Recharge)

I was musing over a "Requires [Regenerating Resource]" Limitation (basically something that would function the way having multiple abilities with Costs ER should function, costing less than the unmodified Advantages rather than costing more as most ER builds do once you account for needing to buy the ER). But as a base, I needed something that allowed for multiple uses between recharges. It occurred to me to look at Limited Use 1 vs Takes Recharge, and as it turns out, these line up decently well - a 5 second recharge is 1/4 the value of 1 use per day, a 15 second recharge is 1/2, and a 1 hour recharge is 3/4. So, if we wanted to combine Limited Use and Takes Recharge, making the latter a variant of the former (so that it can work for more than 1 use at a time). But... how should the recharging work? I can think of four general options.

1) All at once, timer starts on first use. As it says, this is something where the first time you use the ability, the timer - 5 seconds, 15 seconds, or 1 hour - starts. Once the timer reaches the appropriate time, all uses regenerate. This seems rather unbalanced to me... but I believe it is the way things like Luck (or, rather, the higher levels of it) work by default.

2) All at once, timer restarts on each use. This is similar to the above, but the timer restarts every time you use the ability - so with a 5 second timer, if you use it, then four seconds later use it again, then four seconds after that use it yet again, you'll have expended three uses and still need to wait a full 5 seconds to recover what you've used (despite the fact at that point it's been 8 seconds since your first use of the ability). This is a bit more balanced than the above, although I think it swings the pendulum too far in the other direction, being too limiting.

3) One at a time, separate timers. This seems the most balanced, but also the most problematic for purposes of book-keeping.

4) One at a time, sequentially. Rather than each use having its own timer, for this a timer starts on the first use; when it runs its course, it regenerates that use and, if there are any other uses that have been expended, starts regenerating another. This seems decently balanced, and would be a lot easier to handle the book-keeping for. I think it's my preferred option (and is also the way I'd want a "Requires [Regenerating Resource]" Limitation to work as a base).

What do you all think? Which option seems the most GURPS-appropriate, and which would you prefer? Have you tinkered with this idea and come up with something more appropriate?

EDIT: Also, what do you think about attacks with Rapid Fire replenishing one shot at a time, but at an accelerated rate. For example, normally Limited Use gives you shots equal to uses multiplied by RoF. If using option 4, above, that would mean if you had RoF 10 and Limited Use 3 (Takes Recharge, 5 seconds) -5%, you actually have 30 shots, and you recharge 10 shots every 5 seconds. Would it be appropriate if, rather than 10 shots in 5 seconds, you simply regenerated 2 shots every second?
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Last edited by Varyon; 06-29-2022 at 08:56 AM.
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Old 06-29-2022, 11:54 PM   #2
oneofmanynameless
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: New Hampshire, USA
Default Re: Limited Use (Takes Recharge)

First I think, 'Holy ****, I was literally thinking about this exact same thing and worked up homerules for it for my own use like, on sunday! I can't believe someone else just thought of it and posted it on the forums!'

And then I get to looking over your rules and sharing my thoughts.

First, I wouldn't decide on one of those options to use. I would set a base value for Cooldowns based on length of cooldown per use and number of uses, and then I would have each of those options modify those base costs up or down based on whether they're better or worse. I'll give my thoughts on how much but am very open to having my mind changed.

1) I agree option 1 is too good. So I have it reduce the cost of the limiter by +5%. E.G. if you had an innate attack with 3 uses and a 5 second recharge whose timer starts immediately on the first use and which refreshes all uses then that would end up as (3 uses + 5 sec cd = -5%)+5%=0% feature. I know it's theoretically a little worse then being able to attack as often as you want... but only negligibly, particularly in a real fight that may require defending and moving and aiming and using other attacks, etc.

2) I didn't think of this option myself. I'm inclined to agree it feels like it's more limiting. I'd add -5% to the limiter for it.

3) Usually my favorite way of doing things. If your game uses a lot of abilities that have cooldowns this becomes matter of course. Otherwise it might be too much bookkeeping like you say. But no change to the limiter value.

4) This is like the slow reload version of 3. It's a lot easier to use than 3 for the record keeping, but worse in terms of getting your shots back. I'd add -5% to the limiter.

Other options I thought of:
5) All at once, cooldown starts after final use, but can be started prematurely by the character with the ability, and will start on it's own after an amount of time set by the GM when they make the ability. During cooldown ability is unavailable even if you still had shots remaining. In essence this is like a fast reload, but passive instead of requiring active effort. I considered it default and didn't apply a modifier to it. It's better than needing to reload, and that's reflected in how the base reduction of the limiter.

6) All at once, cooldown wont start until all uses have been used. Add -5% to the limiter (or maybe a full -10%? this feels like 2 but way worse.)

In regards to your edit question: I like the thought and I would personally consider it appropriate.
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Old 06-30-2022, 07:47 AM   #3
Varyon
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Default Re: Limited Use (Takes Recharge)

That looks like a solid analysis, thank you. Upon further consideration, I believe you are correct in setting options 2 and 4 as equivalent. Let's consider our fellow with Limited Use 3 (Takes Recharge, 5 seconds) and Rapid Fire 10.

Using Option 2, he can run into a situation where his ability doesn't recharge at all until he's completely out, but once he avoids using it for 5 seconds, it's back up to full. Using Option 4, he'll never run into a situation where his ability doesn't recharge at all until he's completely out, and if he does run completely out, he can actually keep using it at a lower RoF (as he regenerates 2 shots every second)... but to get it back up to full he'll have to avoid using it for a full 15 seconds. The difference would be even more pronounced for someone with Limited Use 10.

I am, however, not certain if using +5% is appropriate, on account of the fact that you're going to very frequently have the Limitation around the -5% to -10% level. Maybe it would be appropriate if we set it so Option 1 uses 1/6, 1/3, and 1/2 as its modifiers for 5 seconds, 15 seconds, and 1 hour*, respectively, while Option 2 and Option 3 would use 3/8, 5/8, and 7/8, respectively. This does give some pretty un-GURPSy modifiers, like -6.25% (5-10 uses**, 15 second recharge), but I think would work out alright. Note I came up with these values by simple averaging - for Option 1, it's the average between the normal (Option 3) price and the next level less limiting (below 5 second recharge is No Limitation, for +0%), while for Option 2 and Option 4, it's the average between the normal (Option 3) price and the next level more limiting (above 1 hour is simply Limited Use, recharging daily).

*Takes Recharge has a weird progression. Treating Limited Use 1 as part of the same progression, and further assuming "Once per day" means some predefined reset time each day (traditionally midnight, sunrise, or sunset) rather than a full 24 hour recharge (so it averages to around a 12 hour recharge), and looking at the base as 5 seconds, it looks like this: Level 1 (5 seconds, -10%) is x1, Level 2 (15 seconds, -20%) is x3, Level 3 (1 hour, -30%) is x720 (x240 relative to the previous level), and Level 4 (12 hours, -40%) is x8640 (x12 relative to the previous level). Part of me is tempted to do something like:
Code:
Time	Limitation
3s	-5%
5s	-10%
10s	-15%
15s	-20%
1m	-25%
10m	-30%
1h	-35%
12h	-40%
That's still not a clean progression, but isn't quite as extreme - it's roughly x1, x1.67, x3.33 (x2 from previous) x5 (x1.67 from previous), x20 (x4 from previous), x200 (x10 from previous), x1200 (x6 from previous), x14,400 (x12 from previous). In SSR, that's +1, +2 (+1 from previous), +4 (+2), +5 (+1), ~+8.5 (+3.5), ~+14.5 (+6), ~+19 (~+4.5), ~+26 (~+7).
Not sure how good of an idea it would be, however - it currently works out to something like "Once per short battle -10%, Once per typical battle -20%, Once per long encounter -30%, and Once per day -40%," which is probably fine, honestly.

**Limited Use is so close to adhering to SSR, it's extremely tempting to shift it a bit so it does. The new progression would be:
Code:
Uses	Limitation
1	-40%
2	-30%
3	-25%
4-5	-20%
6-7	-15%
8-10	-10%
11-15	-5%
16+	+0%
Quote:
Originally Posted by oneofmanynameless View Post
5) All at once, cooldown starts after final use, but can be started prematurely by the character with the ability, and will start on it's own after an amount of time set by the GM when they make the ability. During cooldown ability is unavailable even if you still had shots remaining. In essence this is like a fast reload, but passive instead of requiring active effort. I considered it default and didn't apply a modifier to it. It's better than needing to reload, and that's reflected in how the base reduction of the limiter.
That's actually more limiting than Option 2, where you can still use it during the "cooldown," it just restarts the timer. Perhaps apply the same sort of averaging method again, for 1/2, 3/4, and 15/16, respectively, although I suspect that might give too much of a discount.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oneofmanynameless View Post
6) All at once, cooldown wont start until all uses have been used. Add -5% to the limiter (or maybe a full -10%? this feels like 2 but way worse.)
A step worse than the above, so the same averaging method results in 5/8, 27/32, and 31/32, respectively. Again, that might be a bit too much of a discount.
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Old 07-01-2022, 09:13 AM   #4
KarlKost
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Brazil
Default Re: Limited Use (Takes Recharge)

Costs ER already give a bigger discount than costs FP.

Yes, you have to buy ER, but there is the advantage that ER basically becomes a bigger pool of FP; the one disadvantage of ER is that it cant be used for extra effort nor to "soak up" conditions that "drain" FP (sleep, dehydratation etc), but it has the advantage of "healing" under any conditions, not needing rest, so it is balanced with FP, and both complement each other pretty well.

It's not like points towards ER are wasted, so I dont agree with this notion that "it ends up costing more". I think it's pretty well balanced - having 10 FP (free at HT 10) and 10 ER (30 CP) means basically you have a "total energy pool" of 20 points, and that in some ways it's even better than having an FP pool of 20 (also 30 CP with HT 10), because we also have to remember that they heal independently - thus you heal 1 FP and 1 ER every 10 min, instead of just 1 FP, that being balanced by their different uses (you're limited to 10 FP for extra effort or to being "drained" and limited to 10 ER for abilities), but also have the extra -5% on the price of abilities.

I think ER is perfectly rounded up as it is - but that's of course jus my opinion
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Old 07-01-2022, 12:15 PM   #5
Varyon
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Default Re: Limited Use (Takes Recharge)

Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlKost View Post
Costs ER already give a bigger discount than costs FP.
"Costs ER Only" is, IIRC, worth twice as much as "Costs FP." ER that is only usable for powering abilities with Costs FP/ER has, IIRC, around a -20% Limitation applied to it.

So, let's say we've got 5 abilities, each with a base cost of [20] and some level of Costs ER, and we've got 10 ER. To simplify things, lets say each ability has Costs ER 1 on it. Each actually costs [18], saving us [2] each for a total savings of [10] from our Limitation. Energy Reserve 10 (Abilities Only -20%) costs [24].

So, the character with each of those 5 abilities with no limitations pays [100]. The character with each of those 5 abilities where they burn up 1 ER per use and ER 10, limiting him/her to 10 uses total between the abilities until the ER regenerates, pays [114]. So the latter character pays [+14] for a more limited build.

And this isn't cherry-picking - you've generally got to work at it to get the refund for Costs ER to just break even with the cost of having the ER in the first place, and you end up being pretty heavily limited. For example, with my above build, you break even right around ER 4 (costs [9.6], which rounds up to [10]). So you can only use up to 4 of your 5 abilities within a 10-minute cycle before they all become unavailable, and you only regain 1 use every 10 minutes. And for the privilege of having such a limited build, you have to pay the same price as someone with the same 5 abilities and no limit to their use.


I'm not sure exactly how I'm going to build abilities that share a recharge, but getting Limited Use (Takes Recharge) was step one. I think I've got a pretty good handle on that, although further discussion is certainly most welcome.

By sharing a recharge, I mean basically allowing one to define a regenerating resource that has no direct cost associated with it, and having the abilities built with "Costs [Resource]," but using Limited Use (Takes Recharge) pricing. So say you define the resource as Mana, you have 10 Mana, and you have one ability that uses 5 Mana per use, one that uses 2 Mana per use, and one that uses 1 Mana per use. This means the first ability has Limited Use 2 (Takes Recharge), the second has Limited Use 5 (Takes Recharge), and the third has Limited Use 10 (Takes Recharge). If we define the Mana as replenishing 1 Mana every 10 seconds, the first has a 50 second recharge per use, the second has a 20 second recharge per use, and the third has a 10 second recharge per use; if using my alternative progression for Takes Recharge, the first two would round down to 15 seconds (although maybe you could argue for the first rounding up to 1 minute), while the last would use 10 seconds; if using the RAW Takes Recharge, the first would still round down to 15 seconds and the last would round down to 5. The tricky bit will be giving each a bit of additional Limitation value to account for the fact that using 1 use of the first ability burns up 5 uses of the third (and 2.5 of the second).
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