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Old 09-17-2020, 04:16 PM   #21
TippetsTX
 
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Default Re: Come back with your shield... or on it.

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Originally Posted by Shostak View Post
Are you using the Using Up Armor rules on ITL 108? They can make the difference between one shield and another even more important, especially if you are imposing a DX penalty on the attacker and you make the shield take damage from an attack that would have been successful but for the penalty.
Not exactly. I didn't want to track 'hit points' for objects in my game, but I do have rules where shields can be broken by accident or specifically targeted.
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Old 09-17-2020, 04:27 PM   #22
larsdangly
 
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Default Re: Come back with your shield... or on it.

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Originally Posted by TippetsTX View Post
Ugh, math.

I can say, however, that in our playtesting thus far, shields feel more like shields in combat. Players have indicated that the decisions they have to make between the defensive and offensive options for their characters are much more difficult now... in a good way. TFT has always been about weighing choices, trading one type of advantage for another and this change seems to do a good job doing that for the age-old sword-and-board vs two-handed vs ranged weapon combatants (accepting, of course, the inherent abstractions enforced by the core TFT ruleset).
Can you summarize how you are doing this now? If I understand the specifics I can do the expected value calculation and report back.
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Old 09-17-2020, 05:34 PM   #23
Chris Rice
 
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Default Re: Come back with your shield... or on it.

Another way of dealing with shields that I came across in The Black Hack (or one of its derivatives): Allow the shield its normal TFT defence but, in addition, allow it to be sacrificed (sundered)for a one-off defence increase.

Just thinking off the top of my head: we could allow a shield to be sacrificed to allow twice its normal defence value.

Small shield 2
Round Shield 4
Tower Shield 6

Once the shield has been sacrificed it is destroyed and can no longer be used.

Just something to think about.
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Old 09-17-2020, 05:35 PM   #24
TippetsTX
 
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Default Re: Come back with your shield... or on it.

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Originally Posted by larsdangly View Post
Can you summarize how you are doing this now? If I understand the specifics I can do the expected value calculation and report back.
What details do you need beyond the modifiers and ST requirements listed at the beginning of this thread?

P.S. BTW, check your private messages Lars.
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Old 09-17-2020, 06:32 PM   #25
larsdangly
 
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Default Re: Come back with your shield... or on it.

I just can't remember what, exactly you settled on after discussing different versions of DX modifiers, penalties to hit and armor protection. Can you briefly summarize what you are now playtesting?
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Old 09-21-2020, 08:22 AM   #26
Axly Suregrip
 
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Default Re: Come back with your shield... or on it.

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Originally Posted by TippetsTX View Post
Not exactly. I didn't want to track 'hit points' for objects in my game, but I do have rules where shields can be broken by accident or specifically targeted.
I have been following this thread and you came up with a interesting new twist (-2/-4/-6 DX rules that is). In addition, I would like to hear your rules for targeting shields. It seems this would be essential in a system where shields are this effective.

Also, you may want to consider rules for hooking shields. A common medieval tactic was for one fighter with an axe or halberd would hook the shield with his weapon and pull it down, in order to allow one of his comrades to get an open shot.
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Old 09-21-2020, 03:32 PM   #27
David Bofinger
 
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Default Re: Come back with your shield... or on it.

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Originally Posted by Axly Suregrip View Post
It seems this would be essential in a system where shields are this effective.
There are all sorts of ways to balance shields, but in general if the shields are very effective then make the two-handed weapons better as well. Whether targeting shields is a good idea is a quite different issue.

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Also, you may want to consider rules for hooking shields. A common medieval tactic was for one fighter with an axe or halberd would hook the shield with his weapon and pull it down, in order to allow one of his comrades to get an open shot.
In a big battle the shield wall can be just so good that battles can last hours. People start coming up with all sorts of crazy ideas to try to get around or through it. In TFT it's generally assumed you can just stab people, so a lot of tricks like this might not be needed. Many things therefore got done in big battles that might not be done in a skirmish (TFT's main subject) or a duel, and I suspect shield hooking is one of them. Another is the big push element - battles were more like rugby scrums than oversized skirmishes, but in a skirmish game it's less important.
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Old 09-21-2020, 05:25 PM   #28
Axly Suregrip
 
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Default Re: Come back with your shield... or on it.

Thanks David but I was directing these questions to Tippets. A question and a suggestion.

Tippets, see my update above.
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Old 09-21-2020, 06:24 PM   #29
TippetsTX
 
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Default Re: Come back with your shield... or on it.

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Originally Posted by Axly Suregrip View Post
I would like to hear your rules for targeting shields. It seems this would be essential in a system where shields are this effective.
Targeting a shield is easy (I mean, it's right there... almost like the other guy wants you to hit it). The trick is hitting it straight on with enough power to break it. I'm actually going to post my 'durability/sundering' rules in a new thread so stay tuned.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Axly Suregrip View Post
Also, you may want to consider rules for hooking shields. A common medieval tactic was for one fighter with an axe or halberd would hook the shield with his weapon and pull it down, in order to allow one of his comrades to get an open shot.
I have some general 'disarming' rules that could be applied to shields, I guess. TBH, I'm actually really cautious about adding alot of new tactical maneuvers to TFT. Too many options takes something away from TFT's simple, but elegant approach to combat.
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Old 12-01-2021, 04:02 PM   #30
Nils_Lindeberg
 
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Default Re: Come back with your shield... or on it.

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Originally Posted by David Bofinger View Post
There are two obvious ways to implement shield and armour effects: by DX modifier (mostly used in D&D) or by hits stopped (more common in other games, including TFT Classic).
There is a third way that is an easy compromise without using both ways simultaneously.

You can either use armor points and then give attackers an option to convert DX to Damage, in some way. One example would be shrewd attacks, but for everyone, at let's say -6DX for +1die damage. This means that you can overcome armor by brute force or agile attacks.

Vice versa, you can give armor and shields a defensive bonus instead, but then let attackers use a quick attacks option at half damage for +3DX, or some such. So you can again overcome armor by High DX or High ST (that still do good damage even halved).

Such options should be standard in order to avoid "impossible" 6vsDX attacks or 12+ points of armor that might drag a fight out needlessly.
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