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Old 01-07-2014, 10:15 AM   #41
Christopher R. Rice
 
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Default Re: RPM Magic and Thaumatology Path/Book Magic rituals

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
Good point (and sorry, must have overlooked your previous comment). However, I think this would only be an issue when the ritual is being made up on the spot - if the character is casting a spell for which he has Ritual Mastery, is casting from a Grimoire, or is creating a Charm, the price discount actually would make sense, and might be balanced. It might also make sense for Conditional Spells.

Certainly, getting a price discount on casting a version of Destruction that only affects the red dragon Yisxso is unfair if Yisxso is your target, but making a Charm arrow with that effect should get the discount - because it's useless against everything else. Similarly, if you've managed to acquire a Grimoire that has said version of Destruction (perhaps penned by a mage obsessed with killing the dragon), the price discount should apply.
Of course, in the above case this is probably a -80% Limitation (One Target Only), so that's dropping the cost of Destruction to only 59 energy. Might be appropriate for Ritual Mastery and Grimoire, but perhaps overpowered for a Charm/Conditional Spell (as you'd likely produce such for the sole purpose of killing a boss monster). That said, you probably shouldn't be able to get such a Limitation willy-nilly - you'd need a good deal of knowledge about the subject(s). For Charm Against Dark Beasts, an appropriate roll against Occultism or similar might be necessary to know enough to tailor your Charm, while for Yisxso perhaps you need his True Name and/or some of his shed scales to design the Grimoire/Charm.
This would be a pure setting thing, and again, I wouldn't do it. It feels like double dipping. The skill roll might be a possibility, because basically you're performing a Complimentary skill bonus for a +1, so -5% for that might work, with a critical success granting a -10%, all of which stack with Traditional Trappings, Decanic modifiers, etc. It all boils down to either going all in, or not. You're going to lose some granularity when converting one system to another, but you can keep the feel of it. I'm not sure what Icelander considers a "expensive" spell because I don't know what the skill levels in his game are. If he is running full on monster hunters, any spell of about 100 or less is not going to be "expensive" considering most skill levels.
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Old 01-07-2014, 01:10 PM   #42
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Default Re: RPM Magic and Thaumatology Path/Book Magic rituals

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Well, if you must, just do what the authors did and make stuff up.
I did consider it, but now that I've opened my own practice and am taking an extra two-year-degree in one year, I find that I have less and less time for campaign preparation.

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Then modify how healing works. In my campaigns I have three options (from two different campaigns):
I will change how healing works. I like your healing limit and will probably steal that as is. I might also steal slow healing as the default for Lesser effects.
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Old 01-07-2014, 01:15 PM   #43
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Default Re: RPM Magic and Thaumatology Path/Book Magic rituals

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You could break the Paths apart more ( see p. 13 of Thaumatology: Ritual Path Magic) if you wanted. But keep in mind that rituals are specific effects that work on a small minority - they're affecting your target! You cast the spell with the intent to affect that sort of critter, person, etc. You might (and this is off the top of my head and totally untested) add a energy reduction to the final spell cost if the target is particularly rare (up to maybe -5%). But I have no idea how that'll play out. If you use it, let us know how it went.
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For getting greater discounts for limiting spells, you could always steal from Accessibility Limitations. This isn't RPM RAW, and probably needs checking to insure it's balanced, but if you were to ignore any of the current cost reductions for narrow targets it might work out.

For Charm Against Dark Beasts, you would rewrite the Bestows a Bonus as being for a Broad range (damage rolls), increasing total energy to 53. You would then note that the ritual is only effective against "dark beasts" - if these make up only 5% of the expected campaign threats, look up what this works out to as an Accessibility Limitation and apply it. If 5% works out to be -50% (it's probably more than that), you're looking at an end energy cost of 27. This makes the limitation actually worth it, as you're saving (at least) 26 energy by limiting yourself to "dark beasts" rather than the mere 12 that changing Damage to a Moderate category did.
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I suggested this above. But what worries me about this is that ritual by definition are specific effects. So it feels like double-dipping at best.
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Good point (and sorry, must have overlooked your previous comment). However, I think this would only be an issue when the ritual is being made up on the spot - if the character is casting a spell for which he has Ritual Mastery, is casting from a Grimoire, or is creating a Charm, the price discount actually would make sense, and might be balanced. It might also make sense for Conditional Spells.
That's essentially what I was thinking. Full ritual price is for rituals that you come up with on the spot.

Preexisting rituals that come with inbuilt restrictions, including that of being defined by the GM and having to be researched using the Invention rules if PCs want to add their own, get to use Accessibility limitations or something similar. But that also means that if you make a Charm or Conditional Spell with that ritual and encounter a target that it isn't designed for, you are out of luck.

This seems, at first glance, at least, to be fairly balanced. Flexibility in ritual design comes at the price of the energy efficiency that long-established tried-and-tested rituals enjoy.
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Old 01-07-2014, 01:18 PM   #44
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Default Re: RPM Magic and Thaumatology Path/Book Magic rituals

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I'm not sure what Icelander considers a "expensive" spell because I don't know what the skill levels in his game are. If he is running full on monster hunters, any spell of about 100 or less is not going to be "expensive" considering most skill levels.
I'm running full-on monster hunters in power level, but the magic that PCs have access to is sharply limited, as until the adventure started, they were living in a Very Low Magic world where most people consider magic silly superstitions*.

The sole PC with any magic has skill levels of 12 in most Paths and Energy Reserve 9. He's not a Ritual Adept and thus has to collect power for hours for anything even remotely useful.

Now that his occult studies actually work, however, his high IQ, Magery 3 and Thaumatology 16 mean that he'll probably raise his Path skills fairly quickly, especially since he has only 1 point in most of them. I might even allow him to buy Ritual Adept, at least in limited form.**

*And given that most students of the occult would be unable to perform even the simplest magical tricks in the presence of skeptics, this view was quite justified.
**Perhaps with the Gadget modifier or as part of some mystical rite that also has drawbacks.
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Old 01-07-2014, 01:30 PM   #45
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Default Re: RPM Magic and Thaumatology Path/Book Magic rituals

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I did consider it, but now that I've opened my own practice and am taking an extra two-year-degree in one year, I find that I have less and less time for campaign preparation.
Check your PM box...

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I will change how healing works. I like your healing limit and will probably steal that as is. I might also steal slow healing as the default for Lesser effects.
It works pretty well for my current and I'm running 350+ point characters. Even as cinematic as the player characters are, it produces a climate of "Don't wanna get hurt! I'll be out for days."
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Old 01-07-2014, 01:34 PM   #46
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Default Re: RPM Magic and Thaumatology Path/Book Magic rituals

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
That's essentially what I was thinking. Full ritual price is for rituals that you come up with on the spot.

Preexisting rituals that come with inbuilt restrictions, including that of being defined by the GM and having to be researched using the Invention rules if PCs want to add their own, get to use Accessibility limitations or something similar. But that also means that if you make a Charm or Conditional Spell with that ritual and encounter a target that it isn't designed for, you are out of luck.

This seems, at first glance, at least, to be fairly balanced. Flexibility in ritual design comes at the price of the energy efficiency that long-established tried-and-tested rituals enjoy.
I wouldn't allow any bonus higher than -10% and you'd need to playtest the heck out of it to even see if it's balanced.

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
I'm running full-on monster hunters in power level, but the magic that PCs have access to is sharply limited, as until the adventure started, they were living in a Very Low Magic world where most people consider magic silly superstitions*.

The sole PC with any magic has skill levels of 12 in most Paths and Energy Reserve 9. He's not a Ritual Adept and thus has to collect power for hours for anything even remotely useful.

Now that his occult studies actually work, however, his high IQ, Magery 3 and Thaumatology 16 mean that he'll probably raise his Path skills fairly quickly, especially since he has only 1 point in most of them. I might even allow him to buy Ritual Adept, at least in limited form.**

*And given that most students of the occult would be unable to perform even the simplest magical tricks in the presence of skeptics, this view was quite justified.
**Perhaps with the Gadget modifier or as part of some mystical rite that also has drawbacks.
Very cool stuff! I like high-austerity, secret "worlds" and luckily, most of my players do as well. I'd be right at home in such a game. Consider letting your caster buy Ritual Adept with Costs Character Points (total of 8 CP) to start, so he can whip up a spell when it's really needed. Using the guidelines from Impulse Buys you can even have it so when it's dramatically appropriate (e.g., GM's call) he can use it without points, or double them if he is doing things willy-nilly.
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Old 01-07-2014, 01:36 PM   #47
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Default Re: RPM Magic and Thaumatology Path/Book Magic rituals

Another option, keeping RPM as written, is requiring multiple paths for healing.

"Mens sana in corpore sana" - you might require that all RPM improvised healing use BOTH Body and Spirit paths, at least for Humans.

And like you said, the specificity of "Gank Bla'no'no the Foul" fizzling against "Bla'no'no, who cleans up quite nicely..." should perhaps require a discount. Just make sure that the controls on what gets a discount are firmly in the GM's hands.
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Old 01-07-2014, 01:37 PM   #48
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Default Re: RPM Magic and Thaumatology Path/Book Magic rituals

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Another option, keeping RPM as written, is requiring multiple paths for healing.

"Mens sana in corpore sana" - you might require that all RPM improvised healing use BOTH Body and Spirit paths, at least for Humans.

And like you said, the specificity of "Gank Bla'no'no the Foul" fizzling against "Bla'no'no, who cleans up quite nicely..." should perhaps require a discount. Just make sure that the controls on what gets a discount are firmly in the GM's hands.
This is another good point, but because not to make healing impossible, pick a few restrictions and go with those.
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Old 01-07-2014, 01:53 PM   #49
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Default Re: RPM Magic and Thaumatology Path/Book Magic rituals

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I wouldn't allow any bonus higher than -10% and you'd need to playtest the heck out of it to even see if it's balanced.
So now my campaign also serves as a playtest. ;)

My initial reaction is that higher than 10% is often justified. The key is that this is GM-designed, i.e. anything that promotes the desired feel of magic is reduced in price from what the design system would yield and anything that doesn't... isn't.

So, Succor gets a phat reduction from the ca 15 energy points it should cost, because, among other things, the long duration is a drawback, not added utility, at least when compared to what it would be worth as an 'Instant' effect. Charm Against Dark Beasts will receive a reduction as well.

So might Cloud Memory, Hallucination, Liar's Charm, Obscurity, Slumber, Nighyt Terrors, Dose, Fertility, Lust, Soothe, Sterility, History, Scry, Veil, Vision of Luck, Gambler's Token, Journeyman's Curse, Love Charm, Windfall, Stroke of Luck, etc.

OTOH, rituals like Thunderbolt or Shake the Earth might not receive any cost breaks from what they come out in RPM energy cost when modelled with that system, because they are not subtle effects that fit with the common beliefs about spells among the reference culture.

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Very cool stuff! I like high-austerity, secret "worlds" and luckily, most of my players do as well. I'd be right at home in such a game.
I default to very low magic, very high secrecy campaigns, but was persuaded to change it up a little for this one. Instead of starting out in a mostly non-magical world chasing occult conspiracies, I decided to abstract away the months of research the PCs had done and start as some terrible ritual took effect. Now there are overt and horrific effects happening all over the place and the PCs are starting to fear that this is not just true of the house they were in, but applies to a larger part of the city and perhaps even all of it.

There may be secrecy and conspiracy later, but the first two sessions were pretty much all action, room-to-room fighting, sneaking and rounding up survivors. Lore! and Detective! have so far primarily been useful in knowing who to kill and whom to save.

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Consider letting your caster buy Ritual Adept with Costs Character Points (total of 8 CP) to start, so he can whip up a spell when it's really needed. Using the guidelines from Impulse Buys you can even have it so when it's dramatically appropriate (e.g., GM's call) he can use it without points, or double them if he is doing things willy-nilly.
That I like. I think he's out of points now... but maybe if it just allowed him to disregard the time element, it would be cheaper...

He's due some points for the two sessions....

When we started play, I hadn't even managed to look up how RPM worked, so he managed to cast Charm Against Dark Beasts using Path/Book fairly quickly, under the assumption that he'd have a base skil with all Paths from his magical studies. It was also a critical success, so there's that.
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Old 01-07-2014, 02:12 PM   #50
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Default Re: RPM Magic and Thaumatology Path/Book Magic rituals

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So now my campaign also serves as a playtest. ;)
LOL.

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My initial reaction is that higher than 10% is often justified. The key is that this is GM-designed, i.e. anything that promotes the desired feel of magic is reduced in price from what the design system would yield and anything that doesn't... isn't.
You could treat it that way if you wanted. Just be careful because you're going into houserule territory and published stuff might not work right.

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
So, Succor gets a phat reduction from the ca 15 energy points it should cost, because, among other things, the long duration is a drawback, not added utility, at least when compared to what it would be worth as an 'Instant' effect. Charm Against Dark Beasts will receive a reduction as well.
If you're using the slow healing rules, I would just do a regular healing spell and space it out. So you heal 2 HP when the spell is cast and then 1 HP per 10 minutes after up to 7 HP healed total, on average.

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So might Cloud Memory, Hallucination, Liar's Charm, Obscurity, Slumber, Nighyt Terrors, Dose, Fertility, Lust, Soothe, Sterility, History, Scry, Veil, Vision of Luck, Gambler's Token, Journeyman's Curse, Love Charm, Windfall, Stroke of Luck, etc.

OTOH, rituals like Thunderbolt or Shake the Earth might not receive any cost breaks from what they come out in RPM energy cost when modelled with that system, because they are not subtle effects that fit with the common beliefs about spells among the reference culture.
Hmmm. Maybe.

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
I default to very low magic, very high secrecy campaigns, but was persuaded to change it up a little for this one. Instead of starting out in a mostly non-magical world chasing occult conspiracies, I decided to abstract away the months of research the PCs had done and start as some terrible ritual took effect. Now there are overt and horrific effects happening all over the place and the PCs are starting to fear that this is not just true of the house they were in, but applies to a larger part of the city and perhaps even all of it.
Neat!


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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
There may be secrecy and conspiracy later, but the first two sessions were pretty much all action, room-to-room fighting, sneaking and rounding up survivors. Lore! and Detective! have so far primarily been useful in knowing who to kill and whom to save.
Sounds like fun.

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That I like. I think he's out of points now... but maybe if it just allowed him to disregard the time element, it would be cheaper...

He's due some points for the two sessions....
It would cost 2 points if you ignore just the Time.

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When we started play, I hadn't even managed to look up how RPM worked, so he managed to cast Charm Against Dark Beasts using Path/Book fairly quickly, under the assumption that he'd have a base skil with all Paths from his magical studies. It was also a critical success, so there's that.
Cool thing about RPM, is you can do that and most of them it won't disrupt the flow of past sessions. ;-)
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