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Old 01-06-2014, 06:13 PM   #21
Icelander
 
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Default Re: RPM Magic and Thaumatology Path/Book Magic rituals

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Originally Posted by Ghostdancer View Post
Again, I'm not really seeing the issue here. You can replicate most Path/Book rituals to RPM with little to no change. The energy cost may more or less depending on the effect.
From my untutored attempts to convert them, it seems that the difference in energy cost between a ritual with sharply limited utility and subtle effects and one with a very broadly useful and not at all explicable effects is very often not quite enough.

Sure, when you get into Greater effects, the cost jumps up, but stringing together well chosen Lesser ones can get you much more useful rituals than the ones in Thaumatology at modest costs, but if you try to replicate the flavour of the published ones, you often get a far more expensive effect than the utility of it justifies, at least compared to healing 1d HP for 7 energy.

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Originally Posted by Ghostdancer View Post
Okay, Charm Against Dark Beasts...

Charm Against Dark Beasts
Spell Effects: Lesser Control Mind + Lesser Strengthen Body.
Inherent Modifiers: Bestows a Bonus, Damage rolls against "dark beasts" who succeed their roll against this spell + Bestows a Penalty, rolls versus this spell.
Greater Effects: 0 (x1).

This spell, typically cast as a charm, protects the bearer from supernatural (or magical) "beasts" with a IQ of 5 or less, causing them to flee the area unless they can make a Will-5 roll vs. the caster's Path of Mind skill. Failure means they must flee the area. Success means they can attack the bearer normally, but the bearer gains a +3 bonus to his damage rolls when attacking them. These effects last for one week.

Typical Casting: Lesser Control Mind (5) + Lesser Strengthen Body (3) + Bestows a Bonus, +3 Damage rolls against "dark beasts" who succeed their roll against this spell (8) + Bestows a Penalty, -5 on rolls versus this spell (16) + Duration, 1 week (9). 41 energy (41x1).
As far as I can see, the fact that this ritual is useless against ca 95% of all true foes and only works on incidental threats doesn't reduce the cost much. This is not ideal, in that it means that either I forbid players from making their own rituals (as they'd avoid flavourful restrictions that didn't actually reduce energy cost commesurately) or I accept that no one will use the flavourful rituals and instead stick to the efficient ones, even if those don't have much of the occult about them.
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Old 01-06-2014, 06:55 PM   #22
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Default Re: RPM Magic and Thaumatology Path/Book Magic rituals

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
From my untutored attempts to convert them, it seems that the difference in energy cost between a ritual with sharply limited utility and subtle effects and one with a very broadly useful and not at all explicable effects is very often not quite enough.
Really, if it's going to be a huge problem and you feel you must have the Path/Book flavour, just go with Path/Book instead of RPM. Things are going to be different, because the systems are different.

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
Sure, when you get into Greater effects, the cost jumps up, but stringing together well chosen Lesser ones can get you much more useful rituals than the ones in Thaumatology at modest costs, but if you try to replicate the flavour of the published ones, you often get a far more expensive effect than the utility of it justifies, at least compared to healing 1d HP for 7 energy.
Right, that's because most of the Path/Book rituals were made like most of the Basic Magic spells = with whatever the author thought was right. RPM gives you a flat baseline to work with and goes from there.

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
As far as I can see, the fact that this ritual is useless against ca 95% of all true foes and only works on incidental threats doesn't reduce the cost much. This is not ideal, in that it means that either I forbid players from making their own rituals (as they'd avoid flavourful restrictions that didn't actually reduce energy cost commesurately) or I accept that no one will use the flavourful rituals and instead stick to the efficient ones, even if those don't have much of the occult about them.
Well, you can easily drop the Duration down to a hour, and a argument could be made that the damage bonus qualifies as a narrow category (reduce energy from 41 to 33). As for what ritual works on whatever percentage of foes - that is measurement of Path skills - not rituals.

Again, I'm not understanding why you can't just use Decanic Trappings to give it a more "occult" feeling. For example, Gilly the Herb-Witch makes a Charm Against Dark Beasts. She invokes Roeled using a chain of bronze as a "reusable" trapping for her charm (5 DP for the bronze and 5 for the chain). She ties a series of tiger lily blossoms, raven feathers, and owl feathers in the chain (2 DP each). Finally, she borrows a neighbors dog and gets it to bark while she is casting the spell (2 DP). This gives her a -15% discount, reducing the cost to 28 energy, assuming Gilly has a skill of 14 and Magery 2, she reduces the cost to 22 which doesn't exceed three times her threshold, so she rolls 3d+2 on the Quick-and-Dirty Rituals and Charms table. Rolling a 11 and 12 she succeeds, producing a charm with no quirks.
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Old 01-06-2014, 07:28 PM   #23
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Default Re: RPM Magic and Thaumatology Path/Book Magic rituals

What Ghost Dancer said in the post above.
Trappings, Deacons or other bonuses to reduce costs for your flavor spells should work.
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Old 01-06-2014, 07:59 PM   #24
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Default Re: RPM Magic and Thaumatology Path/Book Magic rituals

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
As far as I can see, the fact that this ritual is useless against ca 95% of all true foes and only works on incidental threats doesn't reduce the cost much. This is not ideal, in that it means that either I forbid players from making their own rituals (as they'd avoid flavourful restrictions that didn't actually reduce energy cost commesurately) or I accept that no one will use the flavourful rituals and instead stick to the efficient ones, even if those don't have much of the occult about them.
It looks like you're comparing this to an ability that'd prevent human targets (or monsters, or whatever) attacking you.

Against a human target, that might count as a greater effect. This would triple costs, making it much more difficult to cast.

Mind effects that'd be Greater for a human target are Lesser for animals, I believe.
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Old 01-07-2014, 12:23 AM   #25
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Default Re: RPM Magic and Thaumatology Path/Book Magic rituals

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It looks like you're comparing this to an ability that'd prevent human targets (or monsters, or whatever) attacking you.

Against a human target, that might count as a greater effect. This would triple costs, making it much more difficult to cast.

Mind effects that'd be Greater for a human target are Lesser for animals, I believe.
Okay, that sounds fair enough.

I still can see far too many useful Lesser effects that blatantly violate both the natural order and real-world occult feel and still come to significantly fewer than 40 energy. It's particularly egrerious that 'minor' effects like instant healing of deep cuts (up to 1d or even 2d HP) or even attacks with magical bolts can come to less than half the energy cost of a fairly subtle effect like causing small animals to avoid you.

I guess I want anything that can't be rationalised by onlookers as coincidence, psychosomatic or an exotic but natural effect to be a Greater effect. And that I'm fine with things that are more flavourful than truly useful in combat being easier to cast than you'd get with RPM calculations.

Which seems fair enough, in that those costs apply for improvised-on-the-spot rituals according to player specifications. Allowing rituals with arbitrary inbuilt limitations and fairly widespread recognition to be more energy efficient seems justified.
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Old 01-07-2014, 12:31 AM   #26
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Default Re: RPM Magic and Thaumatology Path/Book Magic rituals

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post

I guess I want anything that can't be rationalised by onlookers as coincidence, psychosomatic or an exotic but natural effect to be a Greater effect. And that I'm fine with things that are more flavourful than truly useful in combat being easier to cast than you'd get with RPM calculations.
Then change waht is a Lesser Effect. RPM even supports it.
If you want a subtle effect then say those are by default Lesser effects (though allow room for capping that). and overt effects are Greater.
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Old 01-07-2014, 01:26 AM   #27
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Default Re: RPM Magic and Thaumatology Path/Book Magic rituals

There should be a way to get a discount for limiting your spell. I can see why there isn't, because the munchkins would love to abuse such a thing, but it should exist for GMs at least.
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Old 01-07-2014, 02:22 AM   #28
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Default Re: RPM Magic and Thaumatology Path/Book Magic rituals

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There should be a way to get a discount for limiting your spell. I can see why there isn't, because the munchkins would love to abuse such a thing, but it should exist for GMs at least.
Agreed.

I was surprised that there is a mechanism for cost discounts for materials and preparations, but not for appropriate limitations inherent in or side-effects of the ritual itself.
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Old 01-07-2014, 02:29 AM   #29
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Default Re: RPM Magic and Thaumatology Path/Book Magic rituals

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Originally Posted by Ghostdancer View Post
Really, if it's going to be a huge problem and you feel you must have the Path/Book flavour, just go with Path/Book instead of RPM. Things are going to be different, because the systems are different.
If there was any way to make new rituals for the Path/Book system, I would probably stick with it. But given that it doesn't appear to be attracting support in the form of new rituals published anywhere and there are no guidelines for GM-created ones, I would quickly find a need for rituals which don't exist and have no good way to come up with them.

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Originally Posted by Ghostdancer View Post
Right, that's because most of the Path/Book rituals were made like most of the Basic Magic spells = with whatever the author thought was right. RPM gives you a flat baseline to work with and goes from there.
Which is indeed a positive point and the ability to construct one's own rituals is why I'm trying it out.

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Originally Posted by Ghostdancer View Post
Well, you can easily drop the Duration down to a hour, and a argument could be made that the damage bonus qualifies as a narrow category (reduce energy from 41 to 33). As for what ritual works on whatever percentage of foes - that is measurement of Path skills - not rituals.
By default, Path of Body works on all bodies and Path of Mind on all minds, right? So a ritual that is only useful against a small minority of these things ought to be cheaper to perform than one who works against all of them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghostdancer View Post
Again, I'm not understanding why you can't just use Decanic Trappings to give it a more "occult" feeling. For example, Gilly the Herb-Witch makes a Charm Against Dark Beasts. She invokes Roeled using a chain of bronze as a "reusable" trapping for her charm (5 DP for the bronze and 5 for the chain). She ties a series of tiger lily blossoms, raven feathers, and owl feathers in the chain (2 DP each). Finally, she borrows a neighbors dog and gets it to bark while she is casting the spell (2 DP). This gives her a -15% discount, reducing the cost to 28 energy, assuming Gilly has a skill of 14 and Magery 2, she reduces the cost to 22 which doesn't exceed three times her threshold, so she rolls 3d+2 on the Quick-and-Dirty Rituals and Charms table. Rolling a 11 and 12 she succeeds, producing a charm with no quirks.
I do use Decanic Trappings for that. It's just that Decanic Trappings work equally well when powering 'heal 1d HP' and Succor, while the RPM rules somehow make Succor more than twice as expensive as the more useful, more blatantly magical and less flavourful instant healing.
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Old 01-07-2014, 02:36 AM   #30
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Default Re: RPM Magic and Thaumatology Path/Book Magic rituals

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Then change waht is a Lesser Effect. RPM even supports it.
If you want a subtle effect then say those are by default Lesser effects (though allow room for capping that). and overt effects are Greater.
Just so. I had thought that this was the default for RPM, but it seems that the specific guidelines for rituals allow some quite unsubtle effects as 'Lesser'.

I will certainly define anything unsuitably overt as a Greater effect. Now I must come up with a way to have inherently limited rituals with flavourful restrictions be cheaper to use than broadly useful effects. I wonder if I could apply Limitation values for Accessability and similar to energy costs, where applicable, or would I have to adjust those values...
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