[DF] Backstab clarifications

[Varyon]

Backstab is a great option for sneaky types in DF, letting the character roll at between +0 and -10 net to basically vanish and start combat behind the nearest foe (or any foe on a Critical Success). Now that I've designed a character who is intended to make heavy use of this option (with a +5 to perform it at the start of combat, and at net -5 to do it again during combat), I find myself in need of some clarification.

First off, as far as I can tell, the target's (and his/her allies') Per doesn't matter - MoS 0 on the Backstab roll works just as well on an alert Per 20 foe as on an oblivious Per 7 one. Is this correct? Are there any traits that can modify how things work out? Obviously Danger Sense should allow a defense if activated, but does Peripheral Vision allow the target to defend at -2 and 360-degree vision eliminate any defense penalty?

Secondly, if the attacker doesn't have a weapon Ready when battle starts and he/she vanishes with Backstab, how is this handled? Does the attacker need to succeed at a Fast-Draw roll to attack that same round (failing that, the attacker has to wait at least a round for a Ready before attacking)?

Next, is it an option for the character to attack the target from the front or side rather than the back? This can be useful for not starting combat in the middle of a group of foes, but seems like there should be some drawback - I'm thinking -1 to the Backstab roll to start in the target's Side hex, -2 to start in the target's Front hex (although this would usually manifest as "MoS 1+ gives the option of starting in the Side hex, MoS 2+ gives the option of starting in the Front hex).

Finally, suppose it is indeed the case the target's Per doesn't matter, and I wanted to change this (so that a Per 20 target is harder to sneak up on) - what would be a good method that wouldn't severely nerf Backstab-based characters?

I'm thinking a Quick Contest (EDIT: Away from my books, but I may have meant Regular Contest here - basically, the attacker has to succeed on the Backstab roll, then the target takes an additional penalty equal to the attacker's MoS on their Per roll) - Backstab vs Per-5. If the attacker wins, things work normally - no defense, back attack, etc. On a tie, the attacker is noticed just before making their attack, and the victim defends as though it were a Runaround Attack. MoV 1 means the attacker is noticed while in the target's Side hex, MoV 2 means the attacker is noticed while in the target's Front hex. MoV 3 means the attacker is detected 2 yards away, MoV 4 is 3 yards away, MoV 5 is 5 yards away, MoV 6 is 7 yards away, and so forth, following SSR and at a maximum placing the character right back where he/she started (if the attacker used Backstab to vanish mid-battle, however, the maximum is instead equal to the attacker's Move). In all cases, the attacker's player decides which hex the attacker is in when detected (and for MoV 2+ this must be in front of the target), and if eligible (using a weapon with appropriate Reach/Range) the attacker can make an attack immediately upon being discovered. Optionally, the target's allies can be of assistance - if the target fails, but the same roll would have allowed an ally to detect the attacker, said ally can shout a warning; this allows the target to reroll (only one reroll, regardless of how many allies would have noticed, or if the reroll would have resulted in an ally noticing). The maximum distance at which the target can detect the attacker in this case is the distance the ally would have detected the attacker if the ally had been the target. As an added caveat, for targets without clear facing (or who have their back to the party, which functionally gives a -2 to their roll to notice the attacker), "back" should be treated as the hex opposite the direction of the attacker's party, "front" as the hexes on the same side as the attacker's party.

To offer a carrot to go along with this stick, I'm thinking that, if the attacker wins with MoV 5+, he/she has the option to immediately vanish again, with the same modifier as the initial attempt, even if there's no cover nearby. From the viewpoint of the target's allies, the target simply collapses (or winces in pain, if the attack didn't drop him/her), possibly with some bloodspray, but the attacker is never visible. If using the optional rule allowing the target's allies to assist, the attacker doesn't have the option to immediately vanish again if the target got a reroll (as the attacker has been spotted).


So... thoughts?

[Varyon]

Here's a simplified variant of the contest from above.

Attacker wins, MoV 5+: Attacker can immediately attempt to use Backstab again to vanish, at the same net modifier as for the initial use. This functions like a mid-battle Backstab (so each round that passes lets you get up to Move yards further away, rather than basically teleporting to the target).

Attacker wins, MoV 1-4: Normal result - character appears behind the target and attacks.

Tie: Attacker is spotted just before attacking; attack is resolved as a Runaround Attack (attacker has the option to abort the attack, but is still behind the target).

Target wins, MoV 1-4: The attacker is spotted somewhere between his/her starting position and 1 yard away from the target - attacker chooses where. Attacker can opt to immediately make an attack (if eligible), but target is at +2 to defend.

Target wins, MoV 5+: The attacker is spotted somewhere between his/her starting position and 1 yard away from the target - target chooses where. The attacker cannot make an attack until his/her turn arrives.


For mid-battle Backstabs, if the target wins the contest the attacker dictates where his/her "starting position" was, which must be Move yards from the target (and reachable on the previous round). If using the optional rule for allies assisting, the ally suffers an additional penalty equal to the Range modifier between the ally and the target, and the target's MoV cannot exceed that of the ally (if the ally sees the attacker just before he attacks - a tie - then at best the target can treat the attack as a runaround, not shift the attacker away).

As an example, let's say we have a Per 10 Target, but his Ally has Per 20 and is 5 yards away. Our Attacker rolls against an effective 17 (Stealth 17, start of normal combat for -5, +5 for Vanishing Act) and gets a 13, for MoS 4. The Target is effectively rolling effective skill 1 (Per 10, -5 vs Backstab, -4 due to MoS), so needs a Critical success. He rolls a 7, which isn't good enough, and also gives our Attacker MoV above 5, so would be able to Backstab again. However, that Per 20 Ally has an effective skill of 9 (Per 20, -5 vs Backstab, -4 due to MoS, -2 due to Range), and thus that 7 spots the Attacker. She calls out a warning, giving the Target a reroll, but the target again fails to roll a Critical Success and thus suffers an attack without the benefit of defense. However, despite the Attacker's high MoV, he cannot Backstab again (at least without getting back behind cover), as he's been spotted.

[Christopher R. Rice]

This explains it pretty well.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Christopher R. Rice

This explains it pretty well.

That's a good explanation of Striking ST (Surprise Only -60%) (which appears to have simply been renamed Expert Backstabbing at [2]/level in DFRPG, at least going off of Delvers to Grow), but what I'm specifically referring to is the "Backstab" option, which despite the name is a build-up to an attack rather than an attack itself - it's the option to vanish at the start of combat and reappear behind a foe to sneak attack them (expanded, at least in DtG, to be able to do it during combat at a further -5, although I think Vanishing Act includes an Extra Option Perk to allow that).

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by Varyon

That's a good explanation of Striking ST (Surprise Only -60%) (which appears to have simply been renamed Expert Backstabbing at [2]/level in DFRPG, at least going off of Delvers to Grow), but what I'm specifically referring to is the "Backstab" option, which despite the name is a build-up to an attack rather than an attack itself - it's the option to vanish at the start of combat and reappear behind a foe to sneak attack them (expanded, at least in DtG, to be able to do it during combat at a further -5, although I think Vanishing Act includes an Extra Option Perk to allow that).

Ahhh, ok. I misread in my haste. Sorry.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Christopher R. Rice

Ahhh, ok. I misread in my haste. Sorry.

No need to apologize - in fact, I'd like to thank you for linking that, as thinking it over indirectly answers some of questions (or at least has given me some ideas for solutions). Basically, victory in the contest means the attacker treats the target as surprised and mentally stunned (even if the target isn't - necessary for Backstab to work as-advertised outside of an ambush on the part of the attacker, and for Vanishing Act's mid-combat Backstab to work at all), but the attacker must still attack from outside of the target's field of vision to avoid the target getting a defense. So, if the attacker wins in the Backstab contest and opts to attack from the target's Side hex* - or the Rear hex, but the target has Peripheral Vision - the target gets a defense at -6 (-4 for surprise/mental stun, -2 for Side or Rear with Peripheral Vision) and the attacker doesn't benefit from any levels of Expert Backstabbing. Similarly, if the attack wins and opts to attack from the target's Front hex* - or the Side/Rear, but the target has 360-degree Vision - the target gets a -4 to defense (for surprise/mental stun) and the attacker again doesn't benefit from any levels of Expert Backstabbing.

*Provided the foe is facing the party, I think only sneaking around to a Side hex would be worth +1 to the contest, while only sneaking up to the target's Front hex would be worth +2. For foes with different facing, it's basically a case of staying on the same side as the party is good for +2, being partially on the opposite side is good for +1, and moving to the opposite side of the party is the default +0.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Christopher R. Rice

This explains it pretty well.

Do you think based on Kromm's post perhaps it'd be clearer if we actually split that into a pair of -30% limitations coexisting?

Originally Posted by Kromm

1. If you are not expecting to be attacked but are, you are stunned. You still receive an active defense if you can see your attacker, but this is at -4. This most often results from tactical or social surprise.

2. If you are attacked from outside your field of vision, you get no active defense – not even if you were 100% on alert and expecting to be attacked. This most often results from an attack from behind or by someone you cannot see (invisible foe, sniper you fail a Vision roll to notice, etc.).

Notice how neither requires the other.

The -60% limitation specifically means that both conditions must apply, most often with #2 resulting from #1; e.g., the assassin not only achieves tactical surprise but also does so from behind. Requiring just one of these things would be a far less severe limitation – at worst -30%.

Like maybe "stunned foes only" and "unobserving foes only" ?

Originally Posted by Kromm

Both of these conditions actually have two parts, too. The first is composed of "you are surprised" and "you are stunned."

Or hm... the first -30% is more like "stunned foes not expecting to be attacked".

So like in theory if you are stunned without fearing attack (example: I trip and fall and hit my face on the pavement for 1 HP and fail my HT roll) you could still be hit.

The strange thing is... wouldn't you actually be 'unstunned' at the point of a backstab and only enter stun/surprise once the actual injury occurred and you became aware of it?

If for example I was punching a tied-up enemy (attack maneuvers) that's something I wouldn't be able to do if stunned, so clearly I'm not actually stunned at the point my enemy's ally backstabs me, only after, when I get mental-stunned by the surprise of physical-stunned by the injury.

Originally Posted by Kromm

The second is made up of "you can't see the attacker" and "you have no active defense."

It's possible to be surprised but not stunned (say, you weren't expecting an attack but have Combat Reflexes), stunned but not surprised (you are wounded or fail a Fright Check), unable to see an attacker but able to defend (you make a Hearing roll), or unable to defend but able to see an attacker (you did an All-Out Attack). Restricting the condition to any of these smaller particles would be an even smaller limitation – at worst -20%.

If we assume each -30% is split into a pair of -15%s for simplicity (which is why it sums to -30 to need both) then either/or limitations of 0.15 x 0.15 works out to 0.0225 and -2% is probably not enough to save points except for very expensive abilities.

2.25% squared is even worse... 0.00050625 which is barely past 1/2 a %

-30 or -30 otoh would be -9%

Originally Posted by Varyon

what I'm specifically referring to is the "Backstab" option, which despite the name is a build-up to an attack rather than an attack itself - it's the option to vanish at the start of combat and reappear behind a foe to sneak attack them

DF2p11 definitely chose a weird name for this, I would've called it something like "Ninja Vanish" or "Instant Stealth" based on just "hide in shadows, duck into the
bushes, etc."

However pg 12 seems to indicate that it involves more than that, which is like a "setup for a backstab" basically:

Success lets him attack his nearest foe (GM chooses) from behind;
critical success lets him get at any enemy.
On a combat map, start him one step away from and behind his target

One thing that's odd about this is it doesn't seem to take into account original distance or the Basic Move of the Stealth-roller...

It seems like that ought to matter in terms of how long it takes to get into that "one step away" position.

Then again it doesn't say "make the roll and you're instantly there" so perhaps this is just something you do when making a Move maneuver?
It doesn't really talk about what maneuvers allow this combat option.

DF11p35 basically does rename "Backstabbing" rules to the "Disappear" technique (Stealth-5) even though the wording in DF2pg11/12 makes it seem like more than disappearing since you're also remaining unseen while walking (or running?) behind a particular enemy.

Since it's a technique on the Stealth skill, perhaps the usual perception countermeasures to stealth would work?

Not to mention usual modifiers... DF11p35 notes "erasing a further -2 to Stealth due to ambush, encumbrance, lack of cover, etc" even though actually all it's really doing is buying up Stealth-5 to Stealth-1. It is a "Stealth Roll" so I think Per would be used per usual and if it fails then your Backstabbing/Disappear failed in respect to whichever opponent resisted you?

I could see doing some more flexibile modifiers though:

"-5 anywhere but in bush or shadowy tunnels" might fluctuate from -0 to -4 if you're talking less congested vegetation or only-slightly-shadowy tunnels...
(although I'm not sure why to do this light modifiers would already penalize Per rolls to spot you... should we take this part as implication there is no possible resistance? but what if someone can see in darkness? shadows shouldn't help you there)

going from "-5 if the party is ambushed" to 0 (nobody ambushing, standup fight) to "+5 if the party is ambushing" is also something it'd be interesting to see some flexibility on (from -4 to +4) perhaps depending on measuring the effectiveness of either ambush in some way, like via MoV in a contest?

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Plane

*snip*

Kromm mentioned being limited to foes who were unable to defend being -20%, so I'd break it down as follows:

Backstab Only -60%
Backstab Only is made up of Surprise Attack Only (attack is unexpected, thus resulting in stunning) -30% and Unseen Attack Only (attacker isn't perceived at all, making it impossible to defend) -30%. Honestly, it might not be inappropriate to mark each of these as -40% - the combination is only -60% rather than -80% because the two have overlap.
Surprise Attack Only is a subset of Stunned Foes Only -20%, which applies to any foe suffering from Stun (be this due to a surprise attack, an Affliction, having failed a Knockdown and Stunning roll, etc).
Unseen Attack Only is a subset of Undefending Foes Only -20%, which applies to any foe who is unable to use an Active Defense (be this due to being unable to perceive the attacker, having done an All Out Attack, being restrained, etc).

However, this is a tangent for this thread, which is focused on the rules for what DF calls "Backstab" and would probably have been more accurately called "Vanish;" I'd suggest starting a new thread if you wish to discuss this tangent further.

Originally Posted by Plane

One thing that's odd about this is it doesn't seem to take into account original distance or the Basic Move of the Stealth-roller...

Prior to the start of combat and "slow time," character position is relatively abstract. I believe the idea here isn't "As soon as the enemies show up I duck into some bushes, then make my way over to attack" but rather "I was already hidden and in position when the enemies showed up, because I'm sneaky like that." The mid-combat use from Vanishing Act does take the character's movement rate into account, however (and even requires appropriate rolls if the character is using Acrobatics or similar to take a shorter route).

Originally Posted by Plane

I could see doing some more flexible modifiers though:

Yeah, having an abundance of cover/concealment available might make it easier, while largely lacking that would make it much more difficult. I'd just use basic Task Difficulty Modifiers here, and adjust to taste.

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by Varyon

No need to apologize - in fact, I'd like to thank you for linking that, as thinking it over indirectly answers some of questions (or at least has given me some ideas for solutions). Basically, victory in the contest means the attacker treats the target as surprised and mentally stunned (even if the target isn't - necessary for Backstab to work as-advertised outside of an ambush on the part of the attacker, and for Vanishing Act's mid-combat Backstab to work at all), but the attacker must still attack from outside of the target's field of vision to avoid the target getting a defense. So, if the attacker wins in the Backstab contest and opts to attack from the target's Side hex* - or the Rear hex, but the target has Peripheral Vision - the target gets a defense at -6 (-4 for surprise/mental stun, -2 for Side or Rear with Peripheral Vision) and the attacker doesn't benefit from any levels of Expert Backstabbing. Similarly, if the attack wins and opts to attack from the target's Front hex* - or the Side/Rear, but the target has 360-degree Vision - the target gets a -4 to defense (for surprise/mental stun) and the attacker again doesn't benefit from any levels of Expert Backstabbing.

*Provided the foe is facing the party, I think only sneaking around to a Side hex would be worth +1 to the contest, while only sneaking up to the target's Front hex would be worth +2. For foes with different facing, it's basically a case of staying on the same side as the party is good for +2, being partially on the opposite side is good for +1, and moving to the opposite side of the party is the default +0.

Yeah, that seems to follow.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Varyon

The mid-combat use from Vanishing Act does take the character's movement rate into account, however (and even requires appropriate rolls if the character is using Acrobatics or similar to take a shorter route).

cool mention, wasn't aware that Action/MH/ATE had added new option to the DF technique

so this is sort of like a free option for avoiding the "run-around attack" prevention of same-second backstabs?