New Reality Seeds

[Drifter]

Originally Posted by robkelk

It depends on which cities get nuked. Take out parts of Munich and Dresden, and Germany is likely to be as bad off as OTL Japan was. Take out parts of Berlin and Frankfurt, and Germany will be hurting badly.




The phrase was "Germany gets nuked", not "Germany gets nukes".

My bad.

Then again, Germany would not have gotten nuked. I think the racial component of the decision to use nukes in Japan was real. The West needed Russia to know we had such weapons, so they would have been used somewhere. A last choice would have been Germany. Somewhere in the Middle East, along the lines of Baku as mentioned above, would have been much more likely.
But if no other target presented itself they would "demonstrate" the Bomb before they would have used it in Europe.

[adm]

Originally Posted by Drifter

My bad.

Then again, Germany would not have gotten nuked. I think the racial component of the decision to use nukes in Japan was real. The West needed Russia to know we had such weapons, so they would have been used somewhere. A last choice would have been Germany. Somewhere in the Middle East, along the lines of Baku as mentioned above, would have been much more likely.
But if no other target presented itself they would "demonstrate" the Bomb before they would have used it in Europe.

Perhaps, but the Western Allies were afraid of both Germany and Russia in ways that they never were of Japan. If the West has a chance to intimidate both they would. Places like Hamburg and Danzig that were major U-boat production centers would be likely targets, particularly with the new U-boat designs coming out.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Drifter

My bad.

Then again, Germany would not have gotten nuked. I think the racial component of the decision to use nukes in Japan was real.

What would have made them even slightly reluctant to use atomic weapons?

[TGLS]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

What would have made them even slightly reluctant to use atomic weapons?

Lack of undamaged targets like Hiroshima or Nagasaki (both were left alone to demonstrate the power of the bomb)?

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by Drifter

Then again, Germany would not have gotten nuked.

I'm really pretty doubtful about that. Germany had been the intended target for the Manhattan Project team until it began to seem likely that Germany wouldn't last long enough, which was in early 1945.

Somewhere in the Middle East, along the lines of Baku as mentioned above, would have been much more likely.

Baku was Soviet territory and had never been in German hands. Nuking Baku takes you straight to being at war with the Soviets, which seems a dumb move while Germany and Japan are still fighting.

But if no other target presented itself they would "demonstrate" the Bomb before they would have used it in Europe.

Conceivably, but (a) they were very cautious about "wasting" these very expensive bombs - scientists within the project suggested a demonstration before hitting Japan, but the project leadership never took that very seriously and (b) most of the Allied military leadership knew nothing about atomic bombs, and would have had no patience with half-measures. If a weapon existed that might end the war, they'd want it to be used.

Originally Posted by TGLS

Lack of undamaged targets like Hiroshima or Nagasaki (both were left alone to demonstrate the power of the bomb)?

Not quite. They were left undamaged so that the effects could be more accurately assessed, without having pervious damage to complicate matters. "Sending a message" thinking a la Vietnam hadn't happened yet.

[PTTG]

Anglish:

A Centrum victory in the early 1800s. They found a way to secure Britan's place as dominant power in Europe and the world, effectively maturing it from the preeminent power to a superpower. Along the way, they created a nationalist kind of Anglo-Saxon movement that, among other things, reformed the language to remove non-germanic elements from English (though pronunciation remains the same due to pure cultural inertia). Part of this is the close alliance of Britain with Germany, and the somewhat more attenuated alliance between the two nations and other "Norse" powers.

The technological English European Parliament is not yet ready for full absorption into Centrum, and only key actors (bureaucrats and secretaries, not politicians) know that there are benefactors out there... and even they think that they're dealing with coal and steel magnates.

The USA (and most outwardly "independent" nations,) are controlled by British cartels- again, Coal and Steel are whispered in the halls of power.

In order to cement the rule of the technocracy, and to further the unification of the nascent world-state, Centrum is funneling bits of scientific knowledge to Anglish in order to pull them along at a little bit more than a reasonable pace. One such science dump consisted of a few hundred copies of Uncleftish Beholdings.

The plan is to speed the timeline smoothly though hydrocarbons and into atomic power while protecting them from atomic war. All that remains to do is to unite the Anglo-Saxon-European government into a beurocracy, consume the cartels that regulate the rest of the world, and stamp out the last few brushfires of resistance.

Nothing could possibly go wrong.

[TGLS]

Originally Posted by PTTG

Reformed the language to remove non-germanic elements from English

Seems like a silly thing for Centrum to do considering Centrum English is heavier on the French influences, unless it was some kind of ripple from the German alliance and pushing for linguistic uniformity.

Originally Posted by PTTG

In order to cement the rule of the technocracy, and to further the unification of the nascent world-state, Centrum is funneling bits of scientific knowledge to Anglish in order to pull them along at a little bit more than a reasonable pace.

Likewise, it seems almost contradictory for Centrum, which prefers slow technological development, to be deliberately speeding up technological development. Also consider that it would probably be easier to take over the timeline if they were less advanced, and thus more easily preventing nuclear war.
I have little problems with the changes, it just seems weird that Centrum is the one doing them.

[PTTG]

The language reform is definitely a ripple effect from the nationalistic fervor, rather than an intentional change.

Hmmm.... you make a good point about them wanting to slow tech development. However, I suspect that a unified Europe would definitely advance faster

[PTTG]

In 1927, Friedrich Panath and Kurt Peters, in the process of using palladium rods to fuse hydrogen into helium for lifting gas, accidentally discover a net-energy Fusion reaction. It's very slight, really just a curiosity, but it's reproducible. In fact, it's most useful for producing Helium as a lifting gas. (In OTL, they did not succeed at producing the lifting gas they sought at all.)

By 1933, Panath went on a lecture tour of Britain and neglected to come home, taking the opportunity to bring his family with him. Peters, meanwhile, advanced his position as a researcher in Germany. Both men returned to the question of energy later, as the world marched towards war.

History remained much the same until Germany started feeling the fuel shortages. By then, Peters (and his fairly large team) developed a way to dramatically increase the power and efficiency of the fusor (The money and scientists came largely from the Rocketry project, substantially reducing the rate and effectiveness of the missile program). Their method used a new theory and was a geometric increase in effectiveness.

An early fusor about the size and power of a diesel engine was demonstrated [insert turning-point date here]. It used fusion to produce heat and the heat to produce steam, which in turn drove turbines to provide torque. As a prototype, it was not properly shielded and between heat, neutron embitterment of certain critical pipes, and crew exposure, it could not operate for very long. All that considered, it shocked observers when the team demonstrated that a single small bottle of heavy-water fuel would power it for days.

In Britain, the comparative plenitude of fuel meant that there was little drive to produce a fusor, but when the intelligence apparatus discovered the Nazi project, they located Panath and asked him to work with their scientists to determine what was possible. On a smaller time budget and facing a potentially uncooperative research team, I doubt that he could replicate Peters' successes, but at very least he could give them the principles he knew and establish a theory. Certainly, knowing that it's possible to produce the levels that Peters was would give him and his team some clue...

The first use of a fusor in the field was actually a non-combat role; it produced heat to warm camps on the Russian front. The stationary encampments could use sufficient shielding to last for months of constant operation. Certainly not enough to fix the eastern front on its own, but sporadic appearance of fusor tanks (Stahlsarg according to the crews,) might turn the tide if the advantages (endless endurance on a combat scale, nearly no space occupied by fuel) outweigh the disadvantages (frequent maintenance on the brittle fusor core, comparatively rapid turnover of crew).

Nazi atrocities take on an additional horror when they have neutron radiation at hand.

Nonetheless, the fusor is not a war-winning advantage, especially coming along fairly late. The best it can do is make the tanks of the later war into hazardous nuclear waste when destroyed.

Then comes the cold war. Soviets have now captured German documents and materials, and have access to the powerful fusor and some of the scientists who helped make it (Peters vanished during the war). Meanwhile, the Allies have one of the original researchers who helped make it possible, and their own assortment of captured Stahlsarg and field generators. The biggest advantage will go to the side that has access to the fusor laboratory, and I'm not sure where that should be.

The West honestly doesn't have a huge drive for fusors yet. They're nice from an environmental perspective, but coal and oil in this era is extremely cheap. Fusors would probably need at least one more re-factoring in order to compete in terms of $/KwH. The Soviets, however, can see the utility of a very high energy density fuel. The dream of space could definitely use an engine based off the fusor- if you're willing to neutron bomb your own territory to launch it.

This territory will probably be a mid-cold-war conflict. If something happens to start a "fusor race," then it could be a colorful high-energy-density miracle world. Considering the reduction of missile tech, a hot war on this world might feature fewer nukes and more enhanced Stahlsarg-type tanks with heavy neutron shielding.

If the thing that makes cold fusion work on this world also changes the nature of irradiation (i.e., ionizing radiation and mana are literally the same, or radiation grants a random mixture of Cursed and Luck, or just cinematic mutations,) then it might call for a jump back in time so PCs can fight Stahlsarg crews that now posses weird statistical anomalies, painful cases of Mana Enhancer, and/or tentacles.

Alternatively, keep the cold fusion as the only miracle and jump forward to the 1990's Fusion Boom, where cheap, clean energy is finally hitting the market thanks to Bill Gates' genius new fusor design. Communist moon bases are bringing in new hydrogen 3 fuels for Second Generation fusors that are just as powerful but tiny, light, and radiation-free, but they won't share it with us! A perfect situation for corporate espionage...

[TGLS]

Originally Posted by PTTG

The biggest advantage will go to the side that has access to the fusor laboratory, and I'm not sure where that should be.

You could dodge that by having it blow-up when somebody was experimenting with uranium.

Originally Posted by PTTG

The dream of space could definitely use an engine based off the fusor- if you're willing to neutron bomb your own territory to launch it.

Of course, then you are precluding the practicality of adding radiation shielding to the reactor to prevent just that. The NERVA only really ran into trouble because a Mars mission was blocked; if the only rockets are solid-fuel or this, adding in radiation shielding, at least for lower stages is very practical. While extra mass may handicap it slightly, the higher specific impulse would balance it out. If the reactors themselves are dangerous, then the space programs may attempt to recover each stage, or aim for single stage to orbit. More futuristic designs may be using fusor powered ion drives, or maybe a fusion pellet type design.

Originally Posted by PTTG

Communist moon bases are bringing in new hydrogen 3 fuels for Second Generation fusors that are just as powerful but tiny, light, and radiation-free, but they won't share it with us! A perfect situation for corporate espionage...

Or Russia implodes for the same reasons, or even faster when the oil blockades make America and Europe replace oil and natural gas with electrcity and fusors wholesale.