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Old 08-27-2020, 12:24 AM   #11
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Default Re: [Guns] What does accuracy represent?

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Originally Posted by solidsingularity View Post
So from your description, it is the actual minute of angle accuracy of the gun and not just the maximum effective range of the weapon correct?
As I understand it the minute of accuracy would be more the cap not actual ACC. And yes it has nothing to do with range.

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Originally Posted by solidsingularity View Post
If this is the case then why Does the Remington 700 a bolt action rifle have the same accuracy as the FN Minimi an open Bolt machine gun?
Is it because they both have relatively similar affective ranges?
Also, is the equipment modifier "fine accurate" included in the stats of the guns listed in high-tech that are renowned as being high-quality accurate guns?
Generally the quality modifier is not included in the stats on the weapon tables, you need to red the description to be sure though as some weapons were designed to be high quality for typical use.
As for comparing the two guns the FN Minimi is used two handed with a bipod which increases stability. This is noted in the ST entry on the table as 11B† see p. B270 for the legend. Its rather extensive so was not repeated in High Tech to save space.
As for your Remington 700 is a bolt action which is superior in ACC to most (Rupert is right about Rolling Blocks but you dont really see them around anymore and I forgot about that type, sorry) and various versions are described in High Tech p. 116.




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Originally Posted by Rupert View Post
As for the OP's question, Acc is probably best thought of as 'practical accuracy' - how tight a group the weapon will let you shoot in good yet practical conditions. So it's not how well the weapon will shoot when clamped to a bench, though that's part of it. It assumes iron sights and familiarity with the weapon and its foibles.
Agreed on all points.
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Old 08-27-2020, 12:29 AM   #12
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Default Re: [Guns] What does accuracy represent?

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Originally Posted by Kale View Post
There's also the fact to consider that Acc is fairly granular. 2 is typical for most pistols, 3-4 for SMGs, 4-5 for rifles, 6+ for fancy-pants marksmen rifles and so on, so there's not a lot of room for variation within classes of weapon.
This is really an important point. GURPS is simulationist and pretty accurate in nature but at some point you have to sacrifice accuracy for play-ability. Also there are so many details that can factor in that for most campaigns its not worth the extra time or word count and complexity.
Tactical Shooting does get more complicated for those who want it, including caps on effective accuracy.
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Old 08-27-2020, 12:43 AM   #13
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Default Re: [Guns] What does accuracy represent?

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Originally Posted by solidsingularity View Post
So from your description, it is the actual minute of angle accuracy of the gun and not just the maximum effective range of the weapon correct?
I think it's more a conglomeration of factors. Energy weapons use very similar frames to slug-throwers and if it were just minute of angle accuracy you should see nearly identical ACC scores from similar stability of trajectory and frame stability of the weapons. Bullet drop would certainly impact accuracy as we think of it in games but Lasers have phenomenal accuracy and I think part of that is that the near miss effect of a beam rather than a single moment of impact. My accuracy is better because if I don't land my shot where I want, I can gently nudge that beam that way. Gun sights can double the acc of a weapon without altering the ballistics of the weapon at all, so a component of accuracy is how easy the weapon's design makes it to measure the likely path of the projectile. Which is likely why rocket launchers and gyrojet rifles have such low acc compared to guns of similar size.

I think it would be easier to measure what Acc doesn't impact in the ability to group hits closely.
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Old 08-27-2020, 03:05 AM   #14
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Default Re: [Guns] What does accuracy represent?

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Originally Posted by solidsingularity View Post
This is what I have tried to do but seem to be no consensus, my above Remington 700 vs FN Minimi.
The likely easiest way to measure that in real life is compare the Speed/Range table. A single Acc bonus is a good 50% further distance you can hit with the same skill with all other variables considered. And that's a huge difference;

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Originally Posted by Kale View Post
There's also the fact to consider that Acc is fairly granular. 2 is typical for most pistols, 3-4 for SMGs, 4-5 for rifles, 6+ for fancy-pants marksmen rifles and so on, so there's not a lot of room for variation within classes of weapon.
If it was me, I'd likely just follow these guidelines. I've done similar with melee weapons where I know all the little things about ancient chinese weaponry or the reasons why obsidian worked as a weapon but I also know that gurps does well enough at things and the makers did a ton of work to make it work. There's a lot of room inside of Acc 5 weapons because it's quite granular.
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Old 08-27-2020, 03:11 AM   #15
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Default Re: [Guns] What does accuracy represent?

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Originally Posted by Rupert View Post
The reason bolt-actions tend to be the most accurate action type (not actually true - rolling blocks can be just as accurate) is that their bolts lock up very consistently and positively as a rule.
So basically simplicity and solidity of the mechanical action? Thanks, that makes sense. And rolling blocks would also be mechanically simple and solid? ...just looked up a video, and yeah, that's a very simple mechanism, and looks pretty solid.
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Old 08-27-2020, 03:38 AM   #16
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Default Re: [Guns] What does accuracy represent?

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Originally Posted by solidsingularity View Post
In GUPRS what conglomeration of factors is the ACC stat meant to represent?
Basically guns get accuracy by what category they belong to.

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Is it the actual minute of angle rating of the gun?
It is not minute of angle as a typical modern 5.56 carbine gets acc 4 but even the Winchester M1894 acc 5 and the modern carbine is WAY more accurate.

Or as I put it an an earlier topic on the same thing: A WW2 infantry rifle with acc 5 has expected MOA of maybe 3-4, but a modern 5.56 carbine with acc 4 of maybe about 1 MOA.

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Is it how well the gun handles range?
No, or sniper rifles firing .338 Lapua would not have same acc as a 5.56 rifle or that Winchester M1894.

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Is it a collection of this and other factors?
Does not seem so. Or at least I have not been able to find any such set.

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I asked this question because I am having trouble understanding which guns get which accuracy stats and this becomes a large problem when trying to add guns that are not in the books.
Just look up the category of the weapon and use it. That is how it seems to be done in the existing weapons too.

A pocket pistol with no sights: 0
A small pistol with sights: 1
A large pistol: 2
A short smg: 3
A carbine or large smg: 4
Rifle: 5

For heavier weapons it seems to be more a question of velocity, but seems even more unclear and contradictory.
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Old 08-27-2020, 05:11 AM   #17
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Default Re: [Guns] What does accuracy represent?

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Originally Posted by weby View Post
It is not minute of angle as a typical modern 5.56 carbine gets acc 4 but even the Winchester M1894 acc 5 and the modern carbine is WAY more accurate.
Remember, that's the Acc of an M4A1 or similar that's made for military service (so it's not a high-end civilian upper or lower), with a trigger that's made to the milspec (and thus might not be as crisp as you'd like), using basic iron sights (and so has a rather short sight radius).

The M1894 doesn't have all that shiny stuff either, but it does have a long sight radius, and that gives it a certain practical advantage (that said, there's a good case for it being Acc4).
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Old 08-27-2020, 06:21 AM   #18
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Default Re: [Guns] What does accuracy represent?

Look it's really simple.
Acc is an of set to the set range penalties used in the game. And Acc is set by the gun category.

That is why Pistols have lower Acc then rifles and Cannons have higher Acc then them both.

From EIDETIC MEMORY: BLASTER AND LASER DESIGN
BY DAVID L. PULVER

Beam (Blaster)
Beamer: 3
Pistol: 5
Rifle: 10
Cannon: 15

As you can see the Acc has nothing to do with the gun itself, just with the class it falls into.
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Old 08-27-2020, 07:32 AM   #19
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Default Re: [Guns] What does accuracy represent?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rupert View Post
As for the OP's question, Acc is probably best thought of as 'practical accuracy' - how tight a group the weapon will let you shoot in good yet practical conditions. So it's not how well the weapon will shoot when clamped to a bench, though that's part of it. It assumes iron sights and familiarity with the weapon and its foibles.
For what it's worth, I used both a modeling and a curve fit approach to look at bench-rest MoA claimed for weapons vs Acc and found a very good correlation. I summarized the results here.

The rules-based derivation of maximum possible skill for a weapon found in Tactical Shooting was the modeling version of this.

It will certainly get you in the ballpark.

Most times of course, the rate-limit to accuracy has nothing to do with the weapon. It's the operator. I've found many GURPS games where that's not the case, though, including a notable Black Ops game where lacking such an upper bound my wife's character could (seemingly, and with a slight exaggeration) thread a needle at well over 1,000 yards with a .45ACP.
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Old 08-27-2020, 07:44 AM   #20
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Default Re: [Guns] What does accuracy represent?

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Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post

Most times of course, the rate-limit to accuracy has nothing to do with the weapon. It's the operator. I've found many GURPS games where that's not the case, though, including a notable Black Ops game where lacking such an upper bound my wife's character could (seemingly, and with a slight exaggeration) thread a needle at well over 1,000 yards with a .45ACP.
That's mostly a question of Rule of Cool: Yes, hardware sets a limit, but you ignore that in stories where the hardware is really just a way for a leading character to express their ridiculous expertise. It isn't unique to games, or to guns. The example that races to mind is Bullitt . . . there's no way a Ford Mustang GT Fastback can out-race a 440 Magnum Dodge Charger, but the story calls for it, so that's what happens.
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