Need help for game set during Tokugawa rule.

[Witchking]

I would echo the advice to start lightly with the rules and then add on as you have mastered the previous set...

In that spirit I would advise

(GURPS)

Lite
Japan 3E (for flavor and rules spirit not rules application...)
Basic Characters/Campaigns
Martial Arts

Pretty much that should be enough to run a pretty good campaign...if you were looking for more I would think...

Low Tech (plus LT Companions 1,2,3)
Social Engineering
Magic
Mysteries
Mass Combat

should fill out the rest of the dance card nicely...

Good Luck!!

[Mailanka]

Originally Posted by Harry J J Gardner

I certainly want chanbara and cinematic elements but I want to limit them if possible, no taking on dozens of individuals at one time or performing wild feats. As for adding in dark, bloody atmosphere and some forms of severing limbs I'm all for the moody Takashi Miike feel.

Check out Martial Arts and read up on their Chambara rules. In my experience, without powers and cinematic skills, even if you go full cinematic with the chambara, it still FEELS relatively realistic, even if it isn't. But even so, the Chambara rules also contain numerous options that make things darker and dirtier, like extreme dismemberment and more extensive options for bleeding out. In my experience, this sort of game (even with cinematic elements) is fast, furious and exceptionally deadly. GURPS is actually really good at that, so GURPS is a good choice.

Great advice thank you. I have to admit one of my weakest areas of study in pre-modern Japanese History is the martial arts aspect strangely. Are there things like spiritual perks as Japanese swordmanship went from self-protection to self-prefection during the last two and a half centuries of samurai rule. What about Ryu's treasured secret techniques? that could be one form of adding subtle fantasy to the game...

It does, but you might also consider sifting through GURPS Power-Ups 2: Perks for other ways to represent spiritual training. Note, though, that spiritual training doesn't really offer much in the way of concrete benefits unless you start including mystical elements. In Cherry Blossom Rain, I had a highly spiritual clan called the Shimada, and they had fun tricks like Inner Balance, Fearsome Stare (which the group has nicknamed "Shimada Eyes", even in games that aren't set in Japan), meditation and lots of cinematic techniques at their disposal, and as a result, their style is generally slow and patient until someone needs to die, in which case, death comes swiftly. But you're not going to express a lot of that spirituality without adding some spiritual impact to the game.

But you've said you do want to include magic. Dig around, and you'll find some perks and options that will let players resist magic or supernatural influences. That'd be a classic thing for someone hip-deep in buddhist lore might have. If you include some of the cinematic skills but make things like meditation and inner knowledge vital to their working, that will also justify a great deal of spiritual knowledge.

You could go towards some other directions, though. Poetry is a very important element of my game because I've included "stones" that you can spend to gain bonuses to your rolls. If a player dies, he can grant a one-time major bonus in stones to other players, but how many he can give depends on how good his death poem was. Likewise, I follow the rule that meditation can give a character moral insight. Both of these skills have quickly become very important, and there's nothing supernatural about either of them.

Yes any help I can get on translating philosophical beliefs, values and laws into rules would be greatly appreciated as the bushi class during these periods were experiencing a change in Social perception. Once seen as warrior nobility but with no more wars to fight they were transformed into warrior scholars and bureaucrats, hence why the Tokugawa government incorporated neo confucianism and Social stratification as the basis for the beliefs and laws of the land for keeping the samurai in power and at the top of the social structure. Personalities such as Yamaga Sokō enforced this by writing treaties on the Confucius's idea of the "superior man" to the samurai class and defined the warrior as an example of Confucian purity to the other classes of society, and as punisher of those who would stray from its path.

You make me want to go back and watch the works of Yoji Yamada again.

Sounds great but because of the period there were no wars or battles on the scale of the Sengoku era (apart from the shimabara rebellion).

Right. You mentioned some struggles, I thought they might be military. But indeed, we're talking the Edo period, so kimonos and geisha and cross-roads cutting, rather than armor and bows and riding around the battlefield collecting the heads of your enemies.

Yes I was considering the otherworldly and magical elements to be solely in the hands of NPCs. I like the example of the blade, that's keeping in with the sort of mysterious and spooky fantasy elements I'm looking for!

There's plenty of discussion of that in GURPS Japan, including what spells are appropriate and what spells are not. It's a 3e supplement, so it's discussing 3e spells, but it's not hard to figure out what they mean in 4e. Really, my magic is just an extrapolation of that, paired with stuff I found neat at the time. There's no real "system" behind it for me.

Again apart from the concealable armour types I will not need full armour at all really as they become very much a part of ceremonial activity in the Edo period. But things such as teppo will defiantly be a must and yes are be wanting the realistic katana feel instead of the fantasy trope version :)

The Late Katana (which is certainly what you're talking about) is found in both Martial Arts and in Low Tech.

Seems to me you can get away with GURPS Martial Arts and GURPS Japan. You might be helped by GURPS Magic, GURPS Power Ups 2: Perks. If you have the time, money and interest, Low Tech and Thaumatological Styles MIGHT be useful, but they're a low priority at best.

If I were you, I'd get MA and Japan, read up on them, see how many questions they answer for you (both are excellent works), and then come back.

I'm happy to help. I really learned a lot running CBR (and my players would very much like to return to it)

[Jukkaimaru]

Originally Posted by Harry J J Gardner

Great I will look out for those but are you talking about the quality and development of the sword in regards to the 'Late' Katana stats?

Correct, sir. By the 1700s, katana were fully in their most common range of blade lengths, which were on the whole rather shorter than in previous years.

Take heart, though--the 1700s are also opening into the era of "shinshinto", the upswing in blade quality that followed an era where most katana were mostly decorative pieces and not as ruggedly functional as they were in the Sengoku era. (Mechanically, this likely means that getting a Fine quality katana is feasible again. :D)

[Harry J J Gardner]

Originally Posted by Jukkaimaru

Correct, sir. By the 1700s, katana were fully in their most common range of blade lengths, which were on the whole rather shorter than in previous years.

Take heart, though--the 1700s are also opening into the era of "shinshinto", the upswing in blade quality that followed an era where most katana were mostly decorative pieces and not as ruggedly functional as they were in the Sengoku era. (Mechanically, this likely means that getting a Fine quality katana is feasible again. :D)

Ah interesting I did not know that and rather strange to as for the research I have done there seems to be more recorded instances of violent conflict in the 1600s then the 1700s. But this means little especially if you only take official Tokugawa records at face value as they only tell half the story, the other half being records kept by individual Daimyo's administrations in their hans and even those might want to present the event in a certain way.

I learnt all this from a very insightful interview with author Luke S. Roberts where he talks about his book Performing the Great Peace: Political Space and Open Secrets in Tokugawa Japan. Only just got my hands on the book. Here the links to the podcast and the book for those interested:

http://www.uhpress.hawaii.edu/p-7544-9780824835132.aspx

http://newbooksineastasianstudies.co...ii-press-2012/


P.s I really went off on one there didn't I ha

[Polydamas]

Originally Posted by Harry J J Gardner

Concealable armour you say? This will be most helpful for things such as Kote (armoured sleeves), Kusari katabira (mail shirt or vest) and some forms of headgear but unless I'm going to play out the shimabara rebellion in the Kan'ei era I'm probably not going to need full armour types. Noted on the combat, thank you for the advice!

Yes. You'll have to take pieces from a book on Japanese armour and make some choices about how to represent them in GURPS, but Low Tech gives the rules you need (just add Dan Howard's rules for Japanese mail from these forums).

In my experience, its not a good idea to assume "the players will never get military kit, or face anyone wearing it" :) But you certainly wouldn't have to stat it out before it came up.

[Jukkaimaru]

Originally Posted by Harry J J Gardner

Ah interesting I did not know that and rather strange to as for the research I have done there seems to be more recorded instances of violent conflict in the 1600s then the 1700s. But this means little especially if you only take official Tokugawa records at face value as they only tell half the story, the other half being records kept by individual Daimyo's administrations in their hans and even those might want to present the event in a certain way.

It's possible. All I know is that most Japanese spathologists tend to seperate nihonto development into three broad eras:

Koto ("Old Swords"): Considered the best of the best, the pinnacle of Japanese swordcraft. The koto era runs from the invention of the signature curved nihonto in the 900s AD all the way to the very late 1500s, and a lot of these swords remained in use well into the 1600s. Includes *all* tachi (worn as such or having the tang bobbed and the blade refurnitured into a katana), and the first "generation" of purpose-forged katana.

Shinto ("New Swords"): The low point in Japanese swordsmithing that doesn't involve machine manufacture (as in the "katana" used in World War II). Blades became more ornamented, but effectiveness and quality declined, aside from a few master swordsmiths who kept the art alive for the next era. Era runs from the mid-1600s to the mid-ish 1700s. The first few Late Katana would be shinto, and probably not able to exceed Good blade quality unless manufactured by one of those few expert swordsmiths--but MAYBE still able to have Fine *balance* quality.

Shinshinto (Literally "new new swords", more figuratively "New Revival Swords"): Believed to be not quite as good as koto, but a damn sight better than shinto. Brought about by a desire for a return to form among Japanese swordcrafters. Sometimes also called "gendai-to" (IIRC, "Modern Swords"). Started where the shinto era left off, and nihonto manufactured today using all the traditional methods are considered shinshinto as well.

[Jukkaimaru]

Originally Posted by Polydamas

Yes. You'll have to take pieces from a book on Japanese armour and make some choices about how to represent them in GURPS, but Low Tech gives the rules you need (just add Dan Howard's rules for Japanese mail from these forums).

In my experience, its not a good idea to assume "the players will never get military kit, or face anyone wearing it" :) But you certainly wouldn't have to stat it out before it came up.

This, and there's a PDF add-on for Low-Tech called Instant Armor that gives you precalculated stats for armor bits...and as a bonus, has stats for a typical Japanese kabuto!

EDIT: And yeah...if the players are actually samurai, they've honestly got a decent fluff reason to own at least one decent suit of armor--if not necessarily actually WEAR it very often if at all (wearing armor on the road when there's no wars on was a good way to get accused of intent to commit banditry).

[Harry J J Gardner]

Originally Posted by Mailanka

Check out Martial Arts and read up on their Chambara rules. In my experience, without powers and cinematic skills, even if you go full cinematic with the chambara, it still FEELS relatively realistic, even if it isn't. But even so, the Chambara rules also contain numerous options that make things darker and dirtier, like extreme dismemberment and more extensive options for bleeding out. In my experience, this sort of game (even with cinematic elements) is fast, furious and exceptionally deadly. GURPS is actually really good at that, so GURPS is a good choice.

Fast and furious while being very deadly is exactly what I'm looking for! Looking to get that emphasise on positioning, stances, hit locations and general other tactics as well as honing in on when weapons become ineffective in certain environments or when the length of a blade becomes unwieldy and awkward to use when right up next to the target. Hopefully this level of detail won't slow down the adrenaline rush I want to evoke in combats? How have your combats played out in your game? Because my biggest fear is that the most optimal solution is for the characters to just slug it out by striking every turn and that will create a unrealistic atmosphere.

Originally Posted by Mailanka

It does, but you might also consider sifting through GURPS Power-Ups 2: Perks for other ways to represent spiritual training. Note, though, that spiritual training doesn't really offer much in the way of concrete benefits unless you start including mystical elements. In Cherry Blossom Rain, I had a highly spiritual clan called the Shimada, and they had fun tricks like Inner Balance, Fearsome Stare (which the group has nicknamed "Shimada Eyes", even in games that aren't set in Japan), meditation and lots of cinematic techniques at their disposal, and as a result, their style is generally slow and patient until someone needs to die, in which case, death comes swiftly. But you're not going to express a lot of that spirituality without adding some spiritual impact to the game.

But you've said you do want to include magic. Dig around, and you'll find some perks and options that will let players resist magic or supernatural influences. That'd be a classic thing for someone hip-deep in buddhist lore might have. If you include some of the cinematic skills but make things like meditation and inner knowledge vital to their working, that will also justify a great deal of spiritual knowledge.

You could go towards some other directions, though. Poetry is a very important element of my game because I've included "stones" that you can spend to gain bonuses to your rolls. If a player dies, he can grant a one-time major bonus in stones to other players, but how many he can give depends on how good his death poem was. Likewise, I follow the rule that meditation can give a character moral insight. Both of these skills have quickly become very important, and there's nothing supernatural about either of them.

Liking these ideas! Will defiantly come back to this for examples if and when I decide to add such a element to the game.

Originally Posted by Mailanka

You make me want to go back and watch the works of Yoji Yamada again.

Must confess I have only seen twilight samurai out of Yoji Yamada samurai trilogy. For my game I'm going for more of a darker, negative vibe that directors Tadashi Imai and Eiichi Kudo embodied in their samurai films.

Originally Posted by Mailanka

]Right. You mentioned some struggles, I thought they might be military. But indeed, we're talking the Edo period, so kimonos and geisha and cross-roads cutting, rather than armor and bows and riding around the battlefield collecting the heads of your enemies.

Yes it's more the small skirmishes, assassinations and general urban duels than the glorified, vast landscape mayhem and scope of full blown warfare.

Originally Posted by Mailanka

There's plenty of discussion of that in GURPS Japan, including what spells are appropriate and what spells are not. It's a 3e supplement, so it's discussing 3e spells, but it's not hard to figure out what they mean in 4e. Really, my magic is just an extrapolation of that, paired with stuff I found neat at the time. There's no real "system" behind it for me.

Great nice to know I'm getting the impression these 3e supplements won't be hard to convert to GURPS current edition.

Originally Posted by Mailanka

The Late Katana (which is certainly what you're talking about) is found in both Martial Arts and in Low Tech.

Seems to me you can get away with GURPS Martial Arts and GURPS Japan. You might be helped by GURPS Magic, GURPS Power Ups 2: Perks. If you have the time, money and interest, Low Tech and Thaumatological Styles MIGHT be useful, but they're a low priority at best.

If I were you, I'd get MA and Japan, read up on them, see how many questions they answer for you (both are excellent works), and then come back.

I'm happy to help. I really learned a lot running CBR (and my players would very much like to return to it)

Duly noted! Once again thank you for the time you have taken for offering your suggestions and advice and also of your personal game :)

[Harry J J Gardner]

Originally Posted by Jukkaimaru

It's possible. All I know is that most Japanese spathologists tend to seperate nihonto development into three broad eras:

Koto ("Old Swords"): Considered the best of the best, the pinnacle of Japanese swordcraft. The koto era runs from the invention of the signature curved nihonto in the 900s AD all the way to the very late 1500s, and a lot of these swords remained in use well into the 1600s. Includes *all* tachi (worn as such or having the tang bobbed and the blade refurnitured into a katana), and the first "generation" of purpose-forged katana.

Shinto ("New Swords"): The low point in Japanese swordsmithing that doesn't involve machine manufacture (as in the "katana" used in World War II). Blades became more ornamented, but effectiveness and quality declined, aside from a few master swordsmiths who kept the art alive for the next era. Era runs from the mid-1600s to the mid-ish 1700s. The first few Late Katana would be shinto, and probably not able to exceed Good blade quality unless manufactured by one of those few expert swordsmiths--but MAYBE still able to have Fine *balance* quality.

Shinshinto (Literally "new new swords", more figuratively "New Revival Swords"): Believed to be not quite as good as koto, but a damn sight better than shinto. Brought about by a desire for a return to form among Japanese swordcrafters. Sometimes also called "gendai-to" (IIRC, "Modern Swords"). Started where the shinto era left off, and nihonto manufactured today using all the traditional methods are considered shinshinto as well.

I have learnt something new, thank you for this. Already thinking of plot hooks and other immersive ways to highlight the 'surviving' Koto blades for the periods I intend to use for the game.