[SE] Need help with a reference society

[umbros]

I have an idea for a fantasy society but I'm not sure how to set it up in game terms. I have Social Engineering (fine book BTW, I needed this a long time ago) and would like to use it as primary source.

Here's what I have in mind:

The basis of social organization is a Household lead by a Patriarch. This Patriarch is the supreme authority within his household. A household may be as small as a nuclear family or as large as an Imperial household with a 1000+ true members and the remainder of the country as clients. One way to look at it is the emperor is the "supreme Godfather" of the country. So from the bottom individuals are a member of one house or another. Lesser houses may be clients of Greater houses and all are technically children of the Emperor. This basic structure is applied throughout society: Guilds, criminal organizations, etc. and they may interweave.

Individuals who for whatever reason aren't a member of a household are kind of like lone ronin and are under no one's protection therefore outside the law.

There is slavery. there is a stigma attached but the personal slave of a powerful Patriarch should not be trifled with.

Households protect their own and provide for their basic needs.

How would you model all this? some form of rank? Status? both? neither?

Thanks in advance for any help!

[Figleaf23]

Originally Posted by umbros

I have an idea for a fantasy society but I'm not sure how to set it up in game terms. I have Social Engineering (fine book BTW, I needed this a long time ago) and would like to use it as primary source.

Here's what I have in mind:

The basis of social organization is a Household lead by a Patriarch. This Patriarch is the supreme authority within his household. A household may be as small as a nuclear family or as large as an Imperial household with a 1000+ true members and the remainder of the country as clients. One way to look at it is the emperor is the "supreme Godfather" of the country. So from the bottom individuals are a member of one house or another. Lesser houses may be clients of Greater houses and all are technically children of the Emperor. This basic structure is applied throughout society: Guilds, criminal organizations, etc. and they may interweave.

Individuals who for whatever reason aren't a member of a household are kind of like lone ronin and are under no one's protection therefore outside the law.

There is slavery. there is a stigma attached but the personal slave of a powerful Patriarch should not be trifled with.

Households protect their own and provide for their basic needs.

How would you model all this? some form of rank? Status? both? neither?

Thanks in advance for any help!

Whether this is of any use to you, I can't say, but when I created a culture based on multiple co-operative/competitive clans, I used a type of Rank for where individuals stood in their clan, and Status represented where your clan stood relative to others. The overall leader of society was the person of top rank in the highest Status clan. Gaining rank within the clan was a combination of merit and longevity. Clans rose and fell in Status over time based on changes in their wealth and prestige.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

Whether this is of any use to you, I can't say, but when I created a culture based on multiple co-operative/competitive clans, I used a type of Rank for where individuals stood in their clan, and Status represented where your clan stood relative to others. The overall leader of society was the person of top rank in the highest Status clan. Gaining rank within the clan was a combination of merit and longevity. Clans rose and fell in Status over time based on changes in their wealth and prestige.

That is a good way to do it, though I would think most of the time a clan member of very low rank wont have the max clan status, or possibly any status at all.
However for a more rigid caste system it could be very different.

[daniel_gudman]

For a character?

Probably "Claim to Hospitality" paired with "Duty". Higher you go inside the House, the bigger point value each of those would be worth.

Status and Rank...

Having no House affiliation would be Status -1 or -2, I think. A character could probably be either depending on circumstances and such.

General Status and Rank would be... probably based on how high up the food chain you are, and also how high up the food chain the House is.

Authority and leadership inside the House only would probably be Courtesy Rank, which is basically a -80% accessibility limitation on Rank.

I have some questions I'm going to throw at you.

What about layers of Houses? Like, if I'm happily married with a wife and 2.4 kids, and I file as "Head of Household" when I do my taxes for the IRS (in an analogy), then would that be a formal House? What about when I go to work, debugging code for Innitech, is that another formal House, that I'm a member of? Can I be both or neither? Would my personal House be considered a branch House of my employing House? What if I get a new job at Cyberdyne? How does my House affiliation change?

How does "House" structure compare to modern "Corporate" structure? Reading the "history of corporations" article on Wikipedia the idea of an imaginary person for business purposes (a corporation) is early TL4, and become fully institutionalized and irremovable parts of society in TL6.

Actually that gets me to another point, what TL are you imaging this society at? How do the fantastical bits change that?

[umbros]

Originally Posted by daniel_gudman

What about layers of Houses? Like, if I'm happily married with a wife and 2.4 kids, and I file as "Head of Household" when I do my taxes for the IRS (in an analogy), then would that be a formal House?

Technically, Yes but it's unlikely you could maintain such a position, without a patron or extraordinary power.

Originally Posted by daniel_gudman

What about when I go to work, debugging code for Innitech, is that another formal House, that I'm a member of? Can I be both or neither? Would my personal House be considered a branch House of my employing House? What if I get a new job at Cyberdyne? How does my House affiliation change?

Innitech would be a house i. e. "House Innitech" and you would be a member of that house and not independent. You would formally have to be either/or. Though you might be a client/employee (doing piece work/day labor) and be outside the House's protection. In any case if you are a client and had not been dismissed or granted the Patriarch's blessing; leaving to work for another House could be seen as an insult.

Originally Posted by daniel_gudman

How does "House" structure compare to modern "Corporate" structure?

Not sure.

Originally Posted by daniel_gudman

Actually that gets me to another point, what TL are you imaging this society at? How do the fantastical bits change that?

TL 3 with TL 4 elements (typical dungeon fantasy)

[doulos05]

Originally Posted by umbros

I have an idea for a fantasy society but I'm not sure how to set it up in game terms. I have Social Engineering (fine book BTW, I needed this a long time ago) and would like to use it as primary source.

Here's what I have in mind:

The basis of social organization is a Household lead by a Patriarch. This Patriarch is the supreme authority within his household. A household may be as small as a nuclear family or as large as an Imperial household with a 1000+ true members and the remainder of the country as clients. One way to look at it is the emperor is the "supreme Godfather" of the country. So from the bottom individuals are a member of one house or another. Lesser houses may be clients of Greater houses and all are technically children of the Emperor. This basic structure is applied throughout society: Guilds, criminal organizations, etc. and they may interweave.

Individuals who for whatever reason aren't a member of a household are kind of like lone ronin and are under no one's protection therefore outside the law.

There is slavery. there is a stigma attached but the personal slave of a powerful Patriarch should not be trifled with.

Households protect their own and provide for their basic needs.

How would you model all this? some form of rank? Status? both? neither?

Thanks in advance for any help!

I would model this by assigning each house a status level. I'd use the "Arithmetic of Rank" table in the sidebar on page 14 to determine the houses' base starting Status, as a large part of status would, I assume, be based on it's size. Then it would vary up or down based on social circumstances. Every member of a house (even the slaves) must have Status + Social Regard = House Status. Your rank within the house is purchased separately and cannot exceed House Status.

When determining your position relative to someone else, first compare House Status. If they are the same, then compare Rank.

Duty and Claim to Hospitality should also come with this, as someone mentioned up-thread. Not having a house is Status -1 or Status -2 and no social regard.

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by umbros

There is slavery. there is a stigma attached but the personal slave of a powerful Patriarch should not be trifled with.

And each Patriarch has one such personal slave? Rather like in the "Rome" TV series? Or can the Patriarch of a very large household have several slaves who all get this special status as "personal slaves"?

[umbros]

I would say rather like "Rome". Those slaves who are always around may have the opportunity to influence their master. So not every slave a Patriarch owns but just the few who are long time companions and have "after-hours" access.

My big influences for this society are imperial Rome, feudal Japan, and the elder scrolls video games.

[umbros]

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

Whether this is of any use to you, I can't say, but when I created a culture based on multiple co-operative/competitive clans, I used a type of Rank for where individuals stood in their clan, and Status represented where your clan stood relative to others. The overall leader of society was the person of top rank in the highest Status clan. Gaining rank within the clan was a combination of merit and longevity. Clans rose and fell in Status over time based on changes in their wealth and prestige.

Did everyone in the whole clan have the same Status rating? What you are suggesting is kind of what I have in mind, but I'm not sure how to implement it.

[Figleaf23]

Originally Posted by umbros

Did everyone in the whole clan have the same Status rating? What you are suggesting is kind of what I have in mind, but I'm not sure how to implement it.

Yes, everyone in the clan had the same Status, but the effects of Status were not as sweeping in this society as they may be seen to be in, say, Medieval Europe, being somewhat conventionalized in a way that limited the effects.