Dual Weapon Attack and Parry

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Dusqune

On the other hand (IIRC), in a cinematic game, Rapid Strike allows for increased number of attacks (with increasing penalties) compared to Dual Weapon Attack which is limited to the single 'double' attack. Was this meant to simulate the 'difficulty of coordinating two weapons at once'? If so, why does it only emerge in a cinematic game? In the OP's situation (non-cinematic) the whole issue of rapid strike being (potentially) better becomes moot and indicates that DWA is better than Rapid Strike. {In a summary, why do Rapid Strikes gain more potential than Dual Weapon Attacks once the game becomes cinematic while DWA's seem better in a non-cinematic setting?}

Personally I think it's a bummer to make a dual-wielder with the intent of "I get to make the most attacks" wheras the other players that dumped those points into pure weapon skill get to attack more often per turn via Rapid Strike. Seems counterintuitive to me.

I've never thought about the need to reconcile higher-level Rapid Strikes with DWA. Is there any reason you couldn't make one of your Rapid Strikes a DWA?

Originally Posted by Dusqune

But, back onto the topic of non-cinematicness, I have talked to some historians that have stated quite bluntly that the only people who weilded weapons in both hands (in a medieval time period) were berzerkers or idiots, that it hurt more than it helped, and that modern movies play it up only because it looks good. However, there is the main-gauche, or the parrying dagger, that was used a little later, mainly for--as the name indicates--defensive purposes. From a realistic and historical perspective? Everything points to not the best attack method but a decent boost to defense.

Then again I'm no expert on the subject and I'm only repeating what I've been told, so take it as you will.

In general, real people are not actually going to need a Dual Weapon Attack for much of anything. Especially at the cost of a -4 penalty to attack. If you're carrying a second weapon it's more likely than not for a different reason than that. Not necessarily just for parrying though. Having a short blade in your hand has other uses...

Though lots of people went around with shields of various sorts, most of which you could conk someone nicely with in a pinch.

[gilbertocarlos]

Originally Posted by trooper6

What lower damage?

If you're using two hands in combat, you can instead wield a two handed sword, Reach 1, 2 and +2 damage.

Originally Posted by Critical

I agree that the rules do point toward all of the above responses being correct, but I am still a little unsatisfied. It does seem strangely inconsistent that you could strike with two weapons in the same second and suffer a penalty to hit because of the difficulty of using two weapons at once but parry with two weapons in the same second with no penalty - suddenly it's not so hard to use two weapons at once because you're using them defensively instead of offensively? Then again, I'm not a swordsman in real life, so maybe it really is this way.

Well, when you do a dual attack you choose between -4 to hit in both attacks OR no defense, if you had -4 to hit AND a penalty to defend, then no one would ever try to use two weapons, remember that the two attacks are two fast attacks, that's why the -4, if you do 2 normal attacks, then it's an All Out Attack and you get no defense.

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

I've never thought about the need to reconcile higher-level Rapid Strikes with DWA. Is there any reason you couldn't make one of your Rapid Strikes a DWA?

Yes, they're explicitly forbidden on the same maneuver.

But your right there needs to be a chamaba (sp?) option for Dual Weapons like there is for rapid strike

[Dusqune]

Originally Posted by roguebfl

But your right there needs to be a chamaba (sp?) option for Dual Weapons like there is for rapid strike

Would a decent houserule be to just keep stacking the -4's per new attack, the same way you stack the -6's from Rapid Strikes? I don't see any issues with that just glancing at it.

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by Dusqune

Would a decent houserule be to just keep stacking the -4's per new attack, the same way you stack the -6's from Rapid Strikes? I don't see any issues with that just glancing at it.

Well for starters Weapon Master halves Rapid Strike penalties, but not DWA on basis you can buy off the DWA penalties with the technique. I'm not sure that will scale as it's an even bigger point lay. I assume it would be something like Techniquew Mastery (Dual Weapon Attack) that requires so many point in the style before it can be purchaced to prevent lower skilled people from buying it?

so with Weapon Master it is -3/-3 for 2 attacks, -6/-6/-6 for 3 attack and -9/-9/-9/-9 for 4 attacks.

[Dusqune]

Originally Posted by roguebfl

Well for starters Weapon Master halves Rapid Strike penalties, but not DWA on basis you can buy off the DWA penalties with the technique. I'm not sure that will scale as it's an even bigger point lay.

so with Weapon Master it is -3/-3 for 2 attacks, -6/-6/-6 for 3 attack and -9/-9/-9/-9 for 4 attacks

True! I forgot about that....

Would it be too rules-bendy to just treat it as another -3 just like Rapid Strike (with WM)? I mean, for all intents and purposes it would be like houseruling that you can stack rapid strikes on DWA's.

I would also add in a limitation that you have to alternate weapons in order to do this (e.g., you cannot stack DWA+5 Rapid Strikes on your main hand weapon with no Rapid Strikes on your off hand weapon (Reminds me of Monopoly!)). This way, if you have an awesome, enchanted, dwarven, vorpal main hand weapon, you'd be better off just Rapid-Striking with that than DWA-ing it with your wimpy 'parry dagger.'
I think this might be a decent balance to the fact that you could potentially buy the DWA technique up to Skill+4. Yes, that means that you would get to DWA+ for Skill+1 for three attacks, but only two would be your best weapon, and you'd have to take another two attacks, dropping all by another -6, to get another each time.
Considering that the technique to Skill+4 is 10pts, that's 2.5 skill levels--almost enough to negate a single Rapid Strike penalty... putting the Rapid Strike build at 1.5 better skill for two less attacks (or just one and a half less attacks, depending on how you want to look at it) which isn't too bad considering you get an extra hand freed up, you only have to buy/maintain/etc. one weapon... but maybe it does favor DWA+ attacks a bit too much, especially if the DWA+ user has two good, enchanted, vorpal weapons while the Rapid Striker has his one.

Interesting how changing a penalty by one point takes a conceptual ability from underpowered to overpowered...

[Witchking]

Originally Posted by Dusqune

True! I forgot about that.....<snip>I think this might be a decent balance to the fact that you could potentially buy the DWA technique up to Skill+4. Yes, that means that you would get to DWA+ for Skill+1 for three attacks.

The Cap for DWA is Skill even...so you can buy the DWA Technique up to eliminate the -4 for attacking with 2 weapons (nonAoA) but no higher.

[vierasmarius]

Originally Posted by Witchking

The Cap for DWA is Skill even...so you can buy the DWA Technique up to eliminate the -4 for attacking with 2 weapons (nonAoA) but no higher.

I think by "potentially" he means with the use of Technique Mastery.

[Kuroshima]

First, a shield is a weapon, albeit one with a primarily defensive purpose, but it can be used to push, bash, and slam. It certainly wasn't used ONLY to defend. It was used in most of the world, and always combined with another weapon. Dual eskrima sticks is an also valid combination, and so is rapier/main-gauche.

What doesn't happen in real life, and does happen in RPGs, is that people dual wield long weapons (I know, there are dual rapier fencing schools, but the style didn't become dominant, and I'm pretty sure it didn't use the longest rapiers).

[Bruno]

When comparing DWA with Rapid Strike, don't forget that DWA at -4 includes a -1 penalty to defend if you apply both attacks to the same target. This is pretty nice!

Taking two parries from two different weapons simultaneously is All Out Defence: Dual Defence or (as noted previously) Cross-Parry.