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Old 08-27-2010, 07:56 AM   #1
Mathulhu
 
Join Date: May 2009
Default Extra Attack and Dual Weapon Attack

Good morning everyone,
I have a player who wants to combine these two to make three attacks. He is playing a normal human and the setting is only mildly cinematic.

It seems to me that they both do the same thing, allow an extra attack with the off-hand. So I think they shouldn't combine to allow three attacks.

I have found this post that says I am wrong.
http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...1&postcount=27

Does anyone know anything that might help me understand?
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Old 08-27-2010, 08:14 AM   #2
DouglasCole
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Default Re: Extra Attack and Dual Weapon Attack

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathulhu View Post
Good morning everyone,
I have a player who wants to combine these two to make three attacks. He is playing a normal human and the setting is only mildly cinematic.

It seems to me that they both do the same thing, allow an extra attack with the off-hand. So I think they shouldn't combine to allow three attacks.

I have found this post that says I am wrong.
http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...1&postcount=27

Does anyone know anything that might help me understand?
I believe the way to think about this is that Extra Attack gives you an extra attack maneuver. Dual Weapon Attack takes one of those maneuvers and uses two weapons.

What he wants to do is legal; Dual Weapon Attack, however, does come with significant penalties to use from the get-go (though you can buy off stuff with Ambidexterity or Offhand Weapon Training) so it can get spendy.
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Old 08-27-2010, 08:37 AM   #3
kure
 
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Default Re: Extra Attack and Dual Weapon Attack

This combination is perfectly legal*, but Both of this options are cinematic.
so if campaign is not suppose to be cinematic, those are off limit. Especially extra attack.

Normal human can reach 3 attacks even without Extra Attack by using
All out attack (double) + Dual Weapon Attack
or
All out attack (double) + Rapid Strike



*Extra attack by default let you make another attack maneuver with another hand/mouth/tail/striker. If you want to use single arm 2x you will need +20% enhancement from Powers.
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Old 08-27-2010, 08:50 AM   #4
Ze'Manel Cunha
 
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Default Re: Extra Attack and Dual Weapon Attack

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Originally Posted by kure View Post
This combination is perfectly legal*, but Both of this options are cinematic.
so if campaign is not suppose to be cinematic, those are off limit. Especially extra attack.
Correction, using Dual Weapon Attack is not cinematic, improving the technique above default is cinematic because you must have Trained by a Master or Weapon Master in order to improve the technique.
See Martial Arts, p.83.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kure View Post
Normal human can reach 3 attacks even without Extra Attack by using
All out attack (double) + Dual Weapon Attack
or
All out attack (double) + Rapid Strike
In addition, a normal human if he is ambidextrous, or has Off Hand Training, only has a -4/-4 penalty to skill to Dual Weapon Attack, not -4/-8.

Also, when using Rapid Strike a normal human can use "Flurry of Blows", which for 1 FP reduces the -6/-6 skill penalty to -3/-6, or 2 FP for a -3/-3.

Last edited by Ze'Manel Cunha; 08-27-2010 at 09:23 AM. Reason: Corrected FP cost for Flurry of Blows.
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Old 08-27-2010, 09:10 AM   #5
Dinadon
 
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Default Re: Extra Attack and Dual Weapon Attack

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha View Post
Also, when using Rapid Strike a normal human can use "Flurry of Blows", which for 1 FP reduces the -6/-6 skill penalty to -3/-3.
Extra Effort in Combat is cinematic, and the GM is still free to say who can and cannot use it. Such as say requiring TBaM or WM.
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Old 08-27-2010, 09:22 AM   #6
Ze'Manel Cunha
 
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Default Re: Extra Attack and Dual Weapon Attack

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Originally Posted by Dinadon View Post
Extra Effort in Combat is cinematic, and the GM is still free to say who can and cannot use it. Such as say requiring TBaM or WM.
Extra Effort in Combat is Optional, not cinematic, just because any given option is a natural fit for a cinematic game doesn't mean that the option is cinematic.

The GM is of course free to use options as desired, but requiring TBaM or WM for Extra Effort in Combat will result in turning NPCs into mooks and give you a very over the top game.
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Old 08-27-2010, 09:53 AM   #7
Mathulhu
 
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Default Re: Extra Attack and Dual Weapon Attack

Thank you for the response.
I don't see anything in Extra Attack B53-54 that indicates it is cinematic. In fact it includes the line "A normal human can puchase one Extra Attack."

I know how all the other attack methods interact, but the combination of Extra Attack and Dual Weapon Attack is causing me confusion. There are paragraphs within Extra Attack that detail how it interacts with All Out Attack Double and Rapid Strike, but not Dual Weapon Attack. Do you think this is an oversight or an indication that it can be combined with the two mentioned maneuvers but not the third unmentioned maneuver?
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Old 08-27-2010, 10:06 AM   #8
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Default Re: Extra Attack and Dual Weapon Attack

You need to do some flipping through your book some more. You're confusing yourself with kinds of attacks, manuevers, and techniques.

B417 says that if the GM considers it realistic enough for his campaign, anyone can make a dual attack. It's not an easy thing to do, but you can buy the Dual Weapon Attack Technique to make it easier.

Extra Attack increases your effective attack actions in a round by one per level.. If you choose, you could make dual attacks for each of those actions (see B417), but it won't be easy. Buying the Dual Weapon Attack technique can make this easier.

All Out Attack (Double) is another way to have a dual attack, and is actually a little better off than just the way mentioned on B417, but is still risky.. you lose your active defense.. And you can only apply it to one attack action if you have multiple ones (per Extra Attack B53).
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Old 08-27-2010, 10:18 AM   #9
Kazander
 
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Default Re: Extra Attack and Dual Weapon Attack

Have you read the FAQ (read the whole Attacks section http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/faq/FAQ4-3.html#SS3.4.2)

My understanding of how it work is as follows:

1. Yes, 1 level of Extra Attack (with no enhancements) and Dual Weapon attack are largely the same. The primary difference is that DWA is a technique bought up only for a single weapon skill, and does not apply to any other skill. Extra Attack works with any skill.

2. They both require 2 Ready weapons to use.

However, it is, by default if there are no other overriding concerns, always possible to substitute any attack in an Attack Maneuver for a DWA or Rapid Strike. To do this with EA (with no enhancements), you would actually require 3 Ready Weapons----2 for the DWA, and 1 for the Extra Attack.

If, however, you have the Multi-Strike Enhancement (Powers, p.49), you can attack again with the same Ready weapon, allowing you to do DWA with (for example) a broadsword in your right hand, a shortsword in your left, and then attack again with the broadsword using the Extra Attack. Without the MS enhancement, you would have to head-butt or kick (assuming default humanoid body type with 2 arms and 2 legs).

That said, I have noticed that the Multi-Strike enhancement appears to have fallen out of favor in the Dungeon Fantasy series; no templates use it and the DF races (except 1) only have 2 arms. You are probably free to drop that requirement if you feel it's appropriate.
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Old 08-27-2010, 11:01 AM   #10
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Default Re: Extra Attack and Dual Weapon Attack

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Originally Posted by Kazander View Post
That said, I have noticed that the Multi-Strike enhancement appears to have fallen out of favor in the Dungeon Fantasy series; no templates use it and the DF races (except 1) only have 2 arms. You are probably free to drop that requirement if you feel it's appropriate.
That's done by also assuming it's limited to a single skill.
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