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Old 07-16-2010, 08:51 PM   #1
Rune
 
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Default DWA and rapid strikes

The question here is: can I make a Rapid Strike (with 2 attacks) and make one of the attacks a DWA, so that I get 3 attacks?
Also, if the DWA just counts as one attack, wouldn't that mean that I only had to pay 2FP for those 3 attacks if went with Flurry of Blows?

B417 on rules for DWA:
If you have at least two hands, you can strike with two hands at once using an Attack maneuver instead of an All-Out Attack (Double) maneuver

It seems I cannot make a AoA (double) and make one of them a DWA.
It also seems that DWA is only one attack (hence only costing 1 FP in a FoB)

But can I make a rapid strike, and make one of the attacks a DWA?

Further down on B417:
If you already have multiple attacks – for instance, from an Extra Attack (p. 53) – you may “trade” only one of these for a Dual-Weapon Attack. All your remaining attacks must be simple, single-weapon attacks.

I am not sure what the bolded part means. Does it exclude Rapid Strikes?
If one interprets "multiple attacks" as including a Rapid Strike, then I would say that one could make a Rapid Strike and exchange one of the attacks with a DWA.

Has anyone any enlightening views on this?
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Old 07-16-2010, 09:00 PM   #2
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Default Re: DWA and rapid strikes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rune View Post
The question here is: can I make a Rapid Strike (with 2 attacks) and make one of the attacks a DWA, so that I get 3 attacks?
Also, if the DWA just counts as one attack, wouldn't that mean that I only had to pay 2FP for those 3 attacks if went with Flurry of Blows?

B417 on rules for DWA:
If you have at least two hands, you can strike with two hands at once using an Attack maneuver instead of an All-Out Attack (Double) maneuver

It seems I cannot make a AoA (double) and make one of them a DWA.
It also seems that DWA is only one attack (hence only costing 1 FP in a FoB)

But can I make a rapid strike, and make one of the attacks a DWA?

Further down on B417:
If you already have multiple attacks – for instance, from an Extra Attack (p. 53) – you may “trade” only one of these for a Dual-Weapon Attack. All your remaining attacks must be simple, single-weapon attacks.

I am not sure what the bolded part means. Does it exclude Rapid Strikes?
If one interprets "multiple attacks" as including a Rapid Strike, then I would say that one could make a Rapid Strike and exchange one of the attacks with a DWA.

Has anyone any enlightening views on this?
I'd refer you to the rules for Combinations on MA.80. Specifically, the part in the bottom right of that box that begins "Two-Handed Combinations."

The gist of it seems to be that a two-weapon attack (it doesn't call it a DWA, and makes an implicit distinction later in the paragraph) can be "part-Rapid Strike", but that all of the attacks would be at -9 (not -4 with one hand and -10/-10 with the other). And while this does appear in the Combinations box, you can easily extrapolate by saying that any given Rapid Strike is just a "Combination at Default".

There's nothing that make Combinations and Flurry of Blows mutually exclusive, either. But I would rule that if you wanted to have a reduced penalty on all of your attacks, you'd have to spend 3 FP. You have to roll separately to hit with each hand as part of a DWA, and as far as I'm concerned that means you're making two attacks in the place of what would normally be one attack (but taking a -4 penalty in order to do so). And that means you pay an FP for each attack, if you want the Flurry bonus on all of them.

So in this case, I'd say you can make a DWA+1, at -9 on all three rolls. If you spend FP on Flurry of Blows, you'll get down to -4 on each roll that benefits from it.
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Old 07-16-2010, 09:11 PM   #3
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Default Re: DWA and rapid strikes

Have you looked at MA 126-127? I think it's pretty clear.

If you want 3 attacks and you don't have ATR or EA, you can AoA (Double) and trade one attack for 2 either through Rapid Strike, Combinations, or DWA. Or you can do a 3-attack RS at the penalties listed on MA127.

It doesn't look like you can combine DWA with RS though. I could be wrong.
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Old 07-16-2010, 09:22 PM   #4
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Default Re: DWA and rapid strikes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edges View Post
Have you looked at MA 126-127? I think it's pretty clear.

If you want 3 attacks and you don't have ATR or EA, you can AoA (Double) and trade one attack for 2 either through Rapid Strike, Combinations, or DWA. Or you can do a 3-attack RS at the penalties listed on MA127.

It doesn't look like you can combine DWA with RS though. I could be wrong.
Thank you very much.
It seems to be that both RS and AoA double can be combined with DWA

Last edited by Rune; 07-16-2010 at 09:34 PM.
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Old 07-16-2010, 09:35 PM   #5
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Default Re: DWA and rapid strikes

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Originally Posted by Rune View Post
Thank you very much. That is quite clear as you say.
I CAN do a AoA double, and also a rapid strike - both with a DWA included.
No you can not!
Quote:
Originally Posted by FAQ 3.4.2.7
3.4.2.7 Can I replace more than one attacks in a same turn with a combination of Rapid Strike and Dual Weapon Attack?

No, you can only replace one attack with Rapid Strike or Dual Weapon Attack.
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Old 07-16-2010, 09:45 PM   #6
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Default Re: DWA and rapid strikes

Actually that quote says you can REPLACE one attack with EITHER a RS or a DWA.
What does that mean?

It seems to say that if you have an Extra Attack THEN you can only replace ONE with either a RS or a DWA.

IMHO it does not state that you can't take a RS and use one attack as a DWA.
It might INTEND to say that, but as written, I cannot gather that.
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Old 07-16-2010, 10:00 PM   #7
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Default Re: DWA and rapid strikes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rune View Post
Actually that quote says you can REPLACE one attack with EITHER a RS or a DWA.
What does that mean?

It seems to say that if you have an Extra Attack THEN you can only replace ONE with either a RS or a DWA.

IMHO it does not state that you can't take a RS and use one attack as a DWA.
It might INTEND to say that, but as written, I cannot gather that.
Search the Forums it Exactly what it means regards of how many attaks you have be it AoA(Double) or Extra attacks you can swap out a grand total of 1 of them with either RS or DWA but not both!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm
Number of Attacks = 1 + Extra Attack Level +1 if All-Out Attack (Double)

Example 1: A human with no Extra Attack has 1 + 0 + 0 = 1 attack normally, or 1 + 0 + 1 = 2 attacks with All-Out Attack (Double).

Example 2: A dragon with Extra Attack 3 has 1 + 3 + 0 = 4 attacks normally, or 1 + 3 + 1 = 5 attacks with All-Out Attack (Double).

In addition to the above, one can swap one and only one of those attacks for either a Rapid Strike that gives two attacks at -6 (-3 for those with Trained By A Master or Weapon Master) or a Dual-Weapon Attack that gives two attacks at -4 (plus a further -4 for the off hand, unless one has Ambidexterity).

There are plenty of special-case exceptions -- improving the Dual-Weapon Attack and Off-Hand Weapon Training techniques, using Flurry of Blows to trade FP for half the usual Rapid Strike penalty, etc. -- but the above is all one needs to get the gist of what's going on.

One has to be careful with language when discussing Altered Time Rate and Extra Attack, too.

Altered Time Rate gives you an actual extra maneuver. You could, for instance, take All-Out Attack (Double) followed by All-Out Defense . . . or Concentrate followed by Attack . . . or Attack and Attack again . . . or whatever. The above guidelines on number of attacks apply separately to each of your maneuvers.

Extra Attack merely gives you one additional small-a attack or small-f feint if you choose a maneuver that lets you attack or feint in the first place (All-Out Attack, Attack, Feint, Move and Attack, or a triggered Wait). It does not in any way give you an extra maneuver. The "attack" it adds is a strike or grapple, not an Attack maneuver.
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Last edited by roguebfl; 07-17-2010 at 02:07 AM. Reason: attributing the quote
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Old 07-16-2010, 10:23 PM   #8
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Default Re: DWA and rapid strikes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rune View Post
The question here is: can I make a Rapid Strike (with 2 attacks) and make one of the attacks a DWA, so that I get 3 attacks?
No. Rapid Strike and DWA are mutually exclusive. You may turn a single attack into one or the other, but you may never combine them in any way during a single maneuver.

Your maximum number of attacks in a turn is thus [3* plus your level of the Extra Attack advantage].

* Get two from All-Out Attack (Double), then turn one of those into a Rapid Strike or a DWA.
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Old 07-16-2010, 11:36 PM   #9
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Default Re: DWA and rapid strikes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rune View Post
Actually that quote says you can REPLACE one attack with EITHER a RS or a DWA.
What does that mean?
It means quite simply, your hope of getting five or six attacks per turn (AoA double with rapid strike with all three attacks being two weapon or Dual Weapon Attack is officially dashed.

Note as an option with a melee ranged Innate attack, Rapid Fire can be bought, so if you really really really really want to punch a lot of times, you can pull it off, though your 'hand to hand combat' is technically one more or less super power you are labeling as "punching machine".
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Old 07-17-2010, 12:03 AM   #10
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Default Re: DWA and rapid strikes

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Originally Posted by Captain-Captain View Post
...
Note as an option with a melee ranged Innate attack, Rapid Fire can be bought, so if you really really really really want to punch a lot of times, you can pull it off, though your 'hand to hand combat' is technically one more or less super power you are labeling as "punching machine".
Better reserved for The Flash than even a super martial artist, eh?
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