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Old 08-19-2022, 04:08 PM   #1
Wazowski
 
Join Date: Aug 2022
Default Flexibility as a Perk?

A player has taken Dexterity 13 and also wants to take the Flexibility bonuses: (-3 in penalties may be ignored when due to close quarters & +3 on all attempts to break free in close combat). Should it be allowed as a Perk?

What about Empathy, Charisma, and Voice?
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Old 08-19-2022, 04:10 PM   #2
whswhs
 
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Default Re: Flexibility as a Perk?

I can't see how any of those could be justified.
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Old 08-19-2022, 04:19 PM   #3
Varyon
 
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Default Re: Flexibility as a Perk?

Flexibility consists of:
+3 to Climbing rolls
+3 to certain Escape rolls
+3 to Erotic Art rolls
+3 to Break Free in Close Combat
+3 for purposes of negating penalties due to lack of space.

That's roughly a 6-"skill" Talent, which is RAW worth [5], same as Flexibility. If you're only looking to get two of the 6 (+3 to Break Free, +3 to negate certain penalties), that would normally be worth [2], but that's arguably close enough to [1] you could justify it as a Perk.

If you're instead wanting to give the character all of the above... then no, a Perk isn't appropriate. Abilities don't cost less in GURPS just because you already have certain other related abilities. But as Flexibility is relatively cheap to start with, if you as GM opt to give characters such a discount, it probably won't significantly unbalance anything.
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Old 08-19-2022, 04:24 PM   #4
Wazowski
 
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Default Re: Flexibility as a Perk?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
Flexibility consists of:
+3 to Climbing rolls
+3 to certain Escape rolls
+3 to Erotic Art rolls
+3 to Break Free in Close Combat
+3 for purposes of negating penalties due to lack of space.

That's roughly a 6-"skill" Talent, which is RAW worth [5], same as Flexibility. If you're only looking to get two of the 6 (+3 to Break Free, +3 to negate certain penalties), that would normally be worth [2], but that's arguably close enough to [1] you could justify it as a Perk.

If you're instead wanting to give the character all of the above... then no, a Perk isn't appropriate. Abilities don't cost less in GURPS just because you already have certain other related abilities. But as Flexibility is relatively cheap to start with, if you as GM opt to give characters such a discount, it probably won't significantly unbalance anything.
Yes, it would be just the part +3 to Break Free in Close Combat & +3 for purposes of negating penalties due to lack of space. Would the same apply to Empathy, Charisma, and Voice?
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Old 08-19-2022, 04:27 PM   #5
Varyon
 
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Default Re: Flexibility as a Perk?

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Originally Posted by Wazowski View Post
Would the same apply to Empathy, Charisma, and Voice?
Those don't give bonuses to breaking free or dealing with cramped spaces, so no.

If you're talking about reducing how many things they apply to, then yeah, that will reduce the cost. Getting it down to a Perk would generally indicate a marked reduction in effect, however.
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Old 08-19-2022, 04:29 PM   #6
Wazowski
 
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Default Re: Flexibility as a Perk?

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
Those don't give bonuses to breaking free or dealing with cramped spaces, so no.

If you're talking about reducing how many things they apply to, then yeah, that will reduce the cost. Getting it down to a Perk would generally indicate a marked reduction in effect, however.
They give bonuses to Reaction rolls when you interact with someone and when you're heard. Empathy gives a roll to see what you feel about someone. If you get Intelligence 13, could you get those as Perks?
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Old 08-19-2022, 04:45 PM   #7
Michael Thayne
 
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Default Re: Flexibility as a Perk?

Flexibility is insanely cheap for what it does, to the point of being almost mandatory for sneak types who will often need to climb over walls, through windows, etc. That makes it a poor guide to what would be a valid perk. In this specific case, I'd point out that lots of perfectly worthwhile perks only give a +1 or +2 bonus, and usually only to a single narrow activity. Charging a perk point apiece for each of those +3 bonus would already be extremely generous IMHO, asking for both benefits for a single point is definitely trying to get one past the DM.

Something similar is going on with Empathy, Charisma, and Voice. They're already extremely good deals for the right character, such that I would be very careful introducing cheaper versions of them. Sure, "no skill bonus" should be worth something for all those traits, but in no case would I allow even a -50% discount, much less turning them into perks.
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Old 08-19-2022, 06:02 PM   #8
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Default Re: Flexibility as a Perk?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wazowski View Post
They give bonuses to Reaction rolls when you interact with someone and when you're heard. Empathy gives a roll to see what you feel about someone. If you get Intelligence 13, could you get those as Perks?
No. High IQ gives you no advantage for free. You want the advantages, pay the full price for them. Perks are very limited in scope.
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Last edited by Arcanjo7Sagi; 08-19-2022 at 06:06 PM.
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Old 08-19-2022, 06:18 PM   #9
Pursuivant
 
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Default Re: Flexibility as a Perk?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wazowski View Post
A player has taken Dexterity 13 and also wants to take the Flexibility bonuses: (-3 in penalties may be ignored when due to close quarters & +3 on all attempts to break free in close combat).
Compare Slippery for bonuses to break free from grapples.

Look at the Close Combat technique (from GURPS Martial Arts, p. 69) for reduction of skill penalties when using a particular weapon in close combat.

I'll join the chorus to say that no way in Hades should the PC get such generous bonuses as a mere Perk. A perk might give a +2 bonus to one of the things covered by Flexibility, Slippery, or Close Combat, but never more than one.

As for the rest, GURPS rules explicitly say, "what you see is what you get." If the rules don't specify that you get some benefit or problem from a particular trait, you don't get it, even if it would logically follow that you would get it.
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Old 08-19-2022, 07:35 PM   #10
Wazowski
 
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Default Re: Flexibility as a Perk?

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Originally Posted by Pursuivant View Post
Compare Slippery for bonuses to break free from grapples.

Look at the Close Combat technique (from GURPS Martial Arts, p. 69) for reduction of skill penalties when using a particular weapon in close combat.

I'll join the chorus to say that no way in Hades should the PC get such generous bonuses as a mere Perk. A perk might give a +2 bonus to one of the things covered by Flexibility, Slippery, or Close Combat, but never more than one.

As for the rest, GURPS rules explicitly say, "what you see is what you get." If the rules don't specify that you get some benefit or problem from a particular trait, you don't get it, even if it would logically follow that you would get it.
It is being quite difficult, because he is discussing that he might take the advantage, and then take an anti-talent, which would make the advantage free, and still allow him to keep the +2 bonus on several skills from Flexibility.
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