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Old 07-16-2010, 08:51 PM   #1
Rune
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Default DWA and rapid strikes

The question here is: can I make a Rapid Strike (with 2 attacks) and make one of the attacks a DWA, so that I get 3 attacks?
Also, if the DWA just counts as one attack, wouldn't that mean that I only had to pay 2FP for those 3 attacks if went with Flurry of Blows?

B417 on rules for DWA:
If you have at least two hands, you can strike with two hands at once using an Attack maneuver instead of an All-Out Attack (Double) maneuver

It seems I cannot make a AoA (double) and make one of them a DWA.
It also seems that DWA is only one attack (hence only costing 1 FP in a FoB)

But can I make a rapid strike, and make one of the attacks a DWA?

Further down on B417:
If you already have multiple attacks – for instance, from an Extra Attack (p. 53) – you may “trade” only one of these for a Dual-Weapon Attack. All your remaining attacks must be simple, single-weapon attacks.

I am not sure what the bolded part means. Does it exclude Rapid Strikes?
If one interprets "multiple attacks" as including a Rapid Strike, then I would say that one could make a Rapid Strike and exchange one of the attacks with a DWA.

Has anyone any enlightening views on this?
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Old 07-16-2010, 09:00 PM   #2
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Default Re: DWA and rapid strikes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rune View Post
The question here is: can I make a Rapid Strike (with 2 attacks) and make one of the attacks a DWA, so that I get 3 attacks?
Also, if the DWA just counts as one attack, wouldn't that mean that I only had to pay 2FP for those 3 attacks if went with Flurry of Blows?

B417 on rules for DWA:
If you have at least two hands, you can strike with two hands at once using an Attack maneuver instead of an All-Out Attack (Double) maneuver

It seems I cannot make a AoA (double) and make one of them a DWA.
It also seems that DWA is only one attack (hence only costing 1 FP in a FoB)

But can I make a rapid strike, and make one of the attacks a DWA?

Further down on B417:
If you already have multiple attacks – for instance, from an Extra Attack (p. 53) – you may “trade” only one of these for a Dual-Weapon Attack. All your remaining attacks must be simple, single-weapon attacks.

I am not sure what the bolded part means. Does it exclude Rapid Strikes?
If one interprets "multiple attacks" as including a Rapid Strike, then I would say that one could make a Rapid Strike and exchange one of the attacks with a DWA.

Has anyone any enlightening views on this?
I'd refer you to the rules for Combinations on MA.80. Specifically, the part in the bottom right of that box that begins "Two-Handed Combinations."

The gist of it seems to be that a two-weapon attack (it doesn't call it a DWA, and makes an implicit distinction later in the paragraph) can be "part-Rapid Strike", but that all of the attacks would be at -9 (not -4 with one hand and -10/-10 with the other). And while this does appear in the Combinations box, you can easily extrapolate by saying that any given Rapid Strike is just a "Combination at Default".

There's nothing that make Combinations and Flurry of Blows mutually exclusive, either. But I would rule that if you wanted to have a reduced penalty on all of your attacks, you'd have to spend 3 FP. You have to roll separately to hit with each hand as part of a DWA, and as far as I'm concerned that means you're making two attacks in the place of what would normally be one attack (but taking a -4 penalty in order to do so). And that means you pay an FP for each attack, if you want the Flurry bonus on all of them.

So in this case, I'd say you can make a DWA+1, at -9 on all three rolls. If you spend FP on Flurry of Blows, you'll get down to -4 on each roll that benefits from it.
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Old 07-16-2010, 09:11 PM   #3
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Default Re: DWA and rapid strikes

Have you looked at MA 126-127? I think it's pretty clear.

If you want 3 attacks and you don't have ATR or EA, you can AoA (Double) and trade one attack for 2 either through Rapid Strike, Combinations, or DWA. Or you can do a 3-attack RS at the penalties listed on MA127.

It doesn't look like you can combine DWA with RS though. I could be wrong.
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Old 07-16-2010, 09:22 PM   #4
Rune
 
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Default Re: DWA and rapid strikes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edges View Post
Have you looked at MA 126-127? I think it's pretty clear.

If you want 3 attacks and you don't have ATR or EA, you can AoA (Double) and trade one attack for 2 either through Rapid Strike, Combinations, or DWA. Or you can do a 3-attack RS at the penalties listed on MA127.

It doesn't look like you can combine DWA with RS though. I could be wrong.
Thank you very much.
It seems to be that both RS and AoA double can be combined with DWA

Last edited by Rune; 07-16-2010 at 09:34 PM.
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Old 07-16-2010, 09:35 PM   #5
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Default Re: DWA and rapid strikes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rune View Post
Thank you very much. That is quite clear as you say.
I CAN do a AoA double, and also a rapid strike - both with a DWA included.
No you can not!
Quote:
Originally Posted by FAQ 3.4.2.7
3.4.2.7 Can I replace more than one attacks in a same turn with a combination of Rapid Strike and Dual Weapon Attack?

No, you can only replace one attack with Rapid Strike or Dual Weapon Attack.
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Old 07-16-2010, 09:45 PM   #6
Rune
 
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Default Re: DWA and rapid strikes

Actually that quote says you can REPLACE one attack with EITHER a RS or a DWA.
What does that mean?

It seems to say that if you have an Extra Attack THEN you can only replace ONE with either a RS or a DWA.

IMHO it does not state that you can't take a RS and use one attack as a DWA.
It might INTEND to say that, but as written, I cannot gather that.
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Old 07-16-2010, 10:23 PM   #7
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Default Re: DWA and rapid strikes

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Originally Posted by Rune View Post
The question here is: can I make a Rapid Strike (with 2 attacks) and make one of the attacks a DWA, so that I get 3 attacks?
No. Rapid Strike and DWA are mutually exclusive. You may turn a single attack into one or the other, but you may never combine them in any way during a single maneuver.

Your maximum number of attacks in a turn is thus [3* plus your level of the Extra Attack advantage].

* Get two from All-Out Attack (Double), then turn one of those into a Rapid Strike or a DWA.
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