'Imperial Culture' (non-canonista)

[Astromancer]

Originally Posted by combatmedic

I'm not sure why Astromancer brought up the United States.

Are you going for 'Yanks in Spaaaaace!', Astromancer?

(Nothing wrong with Yanks in Spaaace, if that's what you like. I dislike it it, for my own part. YMMV)

It was merely a way of showing that certain forms and patterns had existed in human societies in the past, so they could exist in the future.

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by Astromancer

Private as in "I'm not going to rub your nose in what I do in my off hours." FDR didn't dwell on his faith. Lincoln brought up God only in formal speeches, and then stayed nondenominational (at least in 19th century terms).

If religion is "off hours" you might as well not bother with it. There is always the SCA.

If however by "not rubbing one's nose" you just mean "not being rude" one can be rude about anything.

And destroying whole nations as FDR and Lincoln did is a pretty good way to rub noses. And anyone who thinks religion had nothing to do with that doesn't understand Americans and ought to re-read Battle Hymn of the Republic.

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by Astromancer

That would make sense as an act of humility before one's God.

I never thought of it like that; if an Emperor was to do that he would probably go full out and dress like a begger(a rather Eastern Orthodox thing to do but nothing wrong with that; it does have certain weird magnificence). However what I had in mind was the Emperor showing his impartiality.

[jason taylor]

Imperial Botanical Gardens:

Storehouse on capital with samples of rare species from thousands of worlds. It is the ambition of the staff to obtain a specimen from every world in the Imperium but that has not taken place yet.

Hawkplants: Despite it's temporary lapse in fashion a few centuries before Terran starflight, the sport of falconry has become quite popular in the Imperium. It enjoys the reputation as a "Noble's Sport" though it is quite commonly participated in by commoners, there being few sumptuary laws in the Imperium*. One popular variation is to hunt with hawks that have an implant in their optical nerves that allows the hunt to be viewed from the hawks perspective.


*Such of these as there are, are justified primarily for the mundane purpose of preventing the impersonation of nobility and they are kept at the minimum possible. More restrictive sumptuary laws are known on individual worlds though.

[combatmedic]

Originally Posted by Astromancer

In tooth and nail political in-fighting Hamilton attacked Jefferson for personal irreligion. Neither Hamilton nor Washington, both Christians, ever objected to Jefferson's saying the United States wasn't a Christian Nation. And Hamilton was Washington's editor/speech writer-polisher when Washington declared that America wasn't based on religion and the Jews and Mohammedans could be just as good Americans as anyone else. Hamilton said nothing about that.

Hamilton didn't object to Jefferson's saying America wasn't a Christian nation. He objected to both Slavery and a government which he saw as too decentralised to hold the nation together. Different issues.

I could easily see a "Decentralise the Empire to protect our freedoms" faction fighting a "Centralise the Empire so it's strong enough to protect our freedoms" faction. The in-fighting would be epic and nasty.

You're arguing against a strawman. I've never said that the USA was a 'Christian Nation.' No one here has made that claim, to my knowledge. It is, and has been, a nation with a Christian majority, however. Christianity is part of the American culture. If you mean that Christianity was never the official religion of the USA as a whole, of course that is so. Does anyone mean otherwise? I certainly don't.


You may not know it, but several states had established churches. CT was one.

The 1st Amendment does NOT provide for a seperation of church and state in the sense of French style laicite. The 'no law respecting an establishment of religion' clause simply rules out a national church, and prevents the feds from interfering on way or the other with religion in the states.

Now, what does this have to do with Traveller? I'd be happy to continue the discussion in a more appropriate venue.

[combatmedic]

Originally Posted by Astromancer

It was merely a way of showing that certain forms and patterns had existed in human societies in the pass, so they could exist in the future.

Fair enough.

I don't use the USA as a model for the Imperium.

To me, the Imperium is its own beast, but if I were to name real world influences:

HRE

Roman Empire

British Empire and other European colonial empires

Dynastic China


Fictional influences for me include the empires of:

H Beam Piper's Terro-Human Future History

Foundation stories

Mote in God's Eye

Dune

[jason taylor]

The Spinward Marches always reminded me of the Great Game, with the IISS being like the Indian Political Service and the Zho filling the place of the Russians.

I don't see the USA as a model of the Imperium as such, but I think there would be spill over and some aspects do look American. I would want to play that down because we already have a Yanks In Space in the Terran Confederation, and because it is used to often in TV Space Opera. Nontheless we do have some elements.

The Megacorporations I would picture as being often like the East India Company, especially when they are governing on-planet assets or diplomatizing with local world governments. However they don't directly rule the massive proportion of the Imperium as compared to the Companies portion of the British Empire.

[combatmedic]

Originally Posted by jason taylor

The Spinward Marches always reminded me of the Great Game, with the IISS being like the Indian Political Service and the Zho filling the place of the Russians.

I don't see the USA as a model of the Imperium as such, but I think there would be spill over and some aspects do look American. I would want to play that down because we already have a Yanks In Space in the Terran Confederation, and because it is used to often in TV Space Opera. Nontheless we do have some elements.

The Megacorporations I would picture as being often like the East India Company, especially when they are governing on-planet assets or diplomatizing with local world governments. However they don't directly rule the massive proportion of the Imperium as compared to the Companies portion of the British Empire.

I see the Terran Confederation as being more like the United Nations in Space than the United States in Space. North Americans certainly played a significant role in the TC, but so did the Chinese, Brazilians, Indians, Arab nations, South Africans, Argentines, etc.

YMMV

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by combatmedic

I see the Terran Confederation as being more like the United Nations in Space than the United States in Space. North Americans certainly played a significant role in the TC, but so did the Chinese, Brazilians, Indians, Arab nations, South Africans, Argentines, etc.

YMMV

It is the UN in it's embryo form. However the TC as described in canon has a distinctly American feel. Sort of the "vibes" it gives off rather then anything particular. Maybe I just can't picture the UN as an effective government.

What it really resembles is Earthgov from B5 in some ways. Except in this version the humans beat the minbari so to speak.

[combatmedic]

Originally Posted by jason taylor

It is the UN in it's embryo form. However the TC as described in canon has a distinctly American feel. Sort of the "vibes" it gives off rather then anything particular. Maybe I just can't picture the UN as an effective government.

What it really resembles is Earthgov from B5 in some ways. Except in this version the humans beat the minbari so to speak.

I tend to assume that, much as in the real world, all that jazz about 'human rights and democracy' and 'defending freedom' provides a smokescreen for dominating "the wogs" and stealing their stuff.

So, yes, I suppose there's some early 21st century America in there, just not the nice parts.




I find the idea that globalization made all the billions of people on Earth into good little Americans or, even less likely, Europeans, to be too hard to swallow. There would be a lot of cultural, national, economic, ethnic, and religious conflicts simmering under the surface, even as the ISW raged on.

In my conception, the TC government deliberately exploited and magnified fears of the Vilani in order to get people on Earth and in the colonies to obey its edicts.


Of course, such shenanigans don't fool everybody, and they can't work forever.

This helps explain why the TC lost power so soon after the wars ended. The 'Great Satan' was gone and the propaganda had long ago worn thin, in any case. Hiroshi saw the opportunity, and he took it.