Dogs - what TL?

[Anders]

Well, they're TL0 obviously. But there's an informal classification into Paleolithic, Mesolithic and Neolithic which I find reasonable. Where do dogs fall into this? According to the Source of All Earthly Knowledge*:

Genetic and archaeological evidence shows that humans domesticated wolves on more than one occasion, with the present lineage of C. l. familiaris arising at the latest 15,000 years ago as evidenced by the Bonn-Oberkassel site and possibly as early as 33,000 years ago as evidenced by the mtDNA testing on a paleolithic dog's remains from the Razboinichya Cave (Altai Mountains).

My interpretation is that prototype dogs (a.k.a. wolves) are domesticated in the Paleolithic, but the dog as a mature technology are TL M. What do you think?

*wikipedia

[Turhan's Bey Company]

Originally Posted by Anders

My interpretation is that prototype dogs (a.k.a. wolves) are domesticated in the Paleolithic, but the dog as a mature technology are TL M. What do you think?

I'm not sure I'd use the phrase "mature technology" in this context, at least not without significant qualification. Dogs of the sort listed in the entry in LTC3 are certainly Paleolithic, and I'd be willing to accept guard dogs (as in Basic), hunting dogs, and traction dogs (both as described in LTC3) as pre-agricultural as well. Without better evidence, I'm not going to speculate on how widespread dogs and specific breeds were. Herding dogs are TL1.

[blacksmith]

Originally Posted by Turhan's Bey Company

I'm not sure I'd use the phrase "mature technology" in this context, at least not without significant qualification. Dogs of the sort listed in the entry in LTC3 are certainly Paleolithic, and I'd be willing to accept guard dogs (as in Basic), hunting dogs, and traction dogs (both as described in LTC3) as pre-agricultural as well. Without better evidence, I'm not going to speculate on how widespread dogs and specific breeds were. Herding dogs are TL1.

Pastorialism is tl1 and not 0?

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by blacksmith

Pastorialism is tl1 and not 0?

Herding seems to have arisen out of extensive agriculture, which is TL1. Except for herding of reindeer, which may well have arisen independently. That at least is what the research I've done suggested; I haven't reinvestigated it lately.

Bill Stoddard

[Anders]

Yep. Historically it grew out of agriculture and the "secondary products revolution" (i.e., when we began using animals as something else than food - dogs excepted.)

[blacksmith]

Originally Posted by Anders

Yep. Historically it grew out of agriculture and the "secondary products revolution" (i.e., when we began using animals as something else than food - dogs excepted.)

Ok so tl1 is agriculture not metals? Ok. I was figuring Neolithic was still tl0.

[Turhan's Bey Company]

Originally Posted by blacksmith

Ok so tl1 is agriculture not metals? Ok. I was figuring Neolithic was still tl0.

Low-intensity agriculture is pretty much the last big advance of TL0, taking it right up to the edge of TL1. More importantly for this question, though, agriculture and initial domestication of a couple of animals sets the stage for developments safely over the line into TL1. One of those is the secondary products revolution, the development of uses for animals beyond meat and hides. It's here that we get serious domestication of a number of species like sheep and goats and broader use of cattle. The need for and complexity of herding get more complicated, which leads to the need for specialized dog breeds.

[Anders]

The signature technology of TL1 is copper/bronze, right?

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Turhan's Bey Company

sets the stage for developments safely over the line into TL1. One of those is the secondary products revolution, the development of uses for animals beyond meat and hides. .

.....and bones or antlers/horns for needles and fishhooks and sinew for cord and buffal9o bladders for canteens and probably some other stuff.

It might be easier to describe "secondary products" as things like milk and wool and anything else you don't kill the animal to get. At least I thought that was the distinction.

[Vaevictis Asmadi]

Cattle, sheep, pigs, goats, mithuns, and probably chickens were domesticated thousands of years before bronze, writing, towns, and cities started to appear. Alcohol and irrigation also greatly predate metalwork and writing, and cheesemaking probably does as well. Ceramics and textiles were invented in the ice age. Cultivation and semi-cultivation also significantly predate agriculture as such, and sedentary villages existed without and probably before agriculture.

Likewise, in the Americas llamas and/or alpacas have been found to predate even the Caral-Supe culture (which only some archaeologists have considered urban) by at least 2000 years.

Realistically, the agricultural revolution and the beginning of urban and communities and literacy were both huge changes. If I were playing a game set at the start of TL1, I would treat Neolithic and Mesolithic as separate TLs.

But from the point of view of TL2 and later societies, Neolithic is best treated as TL0.

As for specific types of dogs, I don't know to what extent they have been dated. There are certainly pariah-type dogs today that aren't bred for specific uses, for example in New Guinea.