Bestial Disadvantage & Skills

[onetrikpony]

B124; "You cannot learn skills that, in the GM's opinion, rely on "Civilized" notions of art or social interaction..."

Question; Assume IQ 10, which skills are proscribed by the Bestial Trait?

I was surprised to find that weapon and craft skills are not specifically disallowed . I argue with myself at where the line is drawn because I keep thinking of examples in the animal kingdom.

I think it's obvious that all skills that are TL dependent i.e; Farming/TL would be prohibited but then I think of cuttlefish and Disguise/TL, so I guess any skill that requires TL<0?

That begs the question; which combat and weapon skills are prohibited.

Obviously Brawling is ok.
What about; Wrestling, Ax/Mace & Knife?
I assume all ranged weapon skills except general throwing are off the table?

Art and social skills cause some difficulty;
Singing, most whales and birds.
Dancing; many birds, some insects.
Tactics; Wolves, Orca, Chimpanzees.

It's probably safe to prohibit any skill that requires writing, fire, mathematics, and any tool that is more complex than the 6 simple machines.

What's your take?

[Kubby]

Why should the weapons and craft skills be disallowed?

I mean, bestial is a -10 disad and it includes some degree of OPH for the character's bestial nature, it shouldn't be as limiting as you perceive it to be; it absolutely doesn't include any kind of illiteracy (that's -6 on top of that), or innumeracy (that's another -5) with whatever effects it has - it simply would be a cruddy deal.

Now, I do see why looking at the animal kingdom would lead you to a conclusion like this, but they're not only separated by having Bestial unlike human beings, they're separated by a massive IQ difference.

To give you an example of where we'd probably differ in our opinion, I'd have absolutely no problem with a human-IQ-level Bestial character learning Driving/TL, though they would have trouble understanding the importance of traffic laws or driving culture, especially those parts where you're supposed to be nice to those who do not have a metal cage protecting them or whose metal cage is smaller and flimsier than yours - or that this car here is someone's property and shouldn't be taken for a drive.

[onetrikpony]

@ Kubby; thanks for the reply, I get your point of view.

So which skills would you definitely prohibit?

If that's too broad, which combat skills would you prohibit?

[David Johnston2]

It seems clear to me that they were thinking of skills like Savoir Faire, Philoosphy, Connoiseur, Administration and Diplomacy. There's no reason why weapon skills of any kind would be disallowed.

[Michele]

Originally Posted by onetrikpony

@ Kubby; thanks for the reply, I get your point of view.

So which skills would you definitely prohibit?

If that's too broad, which combat skills would you prohibit?

I think you have the definition in that word, "civilized".

For instance, Intimidation is a social skill, but I wouldn't call it particularly civilized - and indeed, intelligent animals do rely on intimidation, including by codified behavior patterns. So an intelligent, albeit bestial, being, should have no problem trying to intimidate others.
On the contrary, and actually at the other end of the spectrum, Diplomacy is quintessentially civilized. Prohibited to a bestial being.

If this helps you, use primates as your touchstone. In certain places where they are in close contact with tourists, there are monkeys who know how to haggle for ransom (they steal cell phones and hand them back in exchange for food, and the bargaining can go on for a while). That tells me Merchant isn't too civilized for an intelligent being, even if bestial.
The bestial being probably won't have Merchant-16, but the limitation factor is in his IQ, which is unlikely to be higher than 10.

By the same reasoning, chimpanzees are known to build crude short spears out of tree branches, and use them for hunting. So, at least simple hand weapon skills shouldn't be forbidden to intelligent bestial beings.

You are surprised craft skills are not barred, but primates do build very simple tools and use them for a variety of purposes, usually for eating but not solely for that purpose. And so on.

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

It reads to me like it's supposed to be subjective: GMs may have different notions of what does and does not constitute "civilized".

[Rupert]

The limitation on skills reads as follows:

Originally Posted by Characters

You cannot learn skills that, in the GM’s opinion, rely on “civilized” notions of art or social interaction, and you have no default with such skills.

So 'civilised' art and 'civilised' social skills are out. Those are the only skills banned. So craft skills are fine as long as they used to make something directly useful, and not something that's just nice to look at, and the tools and such made won't have any allowances for aesthetics or fashion.

Combat Sport and Art skills are generally out, but plain combat skills are certainly in.

A lot of the more cerebral IQ skills will be unlikely candidates, not because the character can't learn them, but because they require social skills at at least default to get someone to teach you, or to be able to learn effectively in the teaching environment they are taught in.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Michele

I think you have the definition in that word, "civilized".

For instance, Intimidation is a social skill, but I wouldn't call it particularly civilized - and indeed, intelligent animals do rely on intimidation, including by codified behavior patterns. So an intelligent, albeit bestial, being, should have no problem trying to intimidate others.

Actually a cobra (IQ 2) would have intimidate - that is what the hood like back is for - to make it look larger then it really is.

Originally Posted by Michele

If this helps you, use primates as your touchstone. In certain places where they are in close contact with tourists, there are monkeys who know how to haggle for ransom (they steal cell phones and hand them back in exchange for food, and the bargaining can go on for a while)

The problem with this example is you are getting into IQ5 which not a good benchmark for IQ 4 or lower animals. The thing is animals can pick up on slight clues and appear to have skills they don't have.

Clever Hans case in point

[Michele]

Originally Posted by maximara

The problem with this example is you are getting into IQ5 which not a good benchmark for IQ 4 or lower animals. The thing is animals can pick up on slight clues and appear to have skills they don't have.

Clever Hans case in point

I don't know if that's a problem. First thing, if the GM wants an IQ-4 animal to appear in the story, it will be just that - an animal. Doesn't really need to worry about skills forbidden because it's Bestial: it will just not have Connoisseur or Current (human) Affairs because it's a damn rat.
The interesting thing of the Bestial Disadvantage is when it applies to NPCs, or even PCs, who are at least as intelligent as a chimp. Not to mention as a human child.

As to the slight clues - that depends. Mathematics rolls performed by humans cannot depend on clues given by bystanders, yes. But I mentioned haggling and bargaining (Merchant), and any good human haggler does rely on clues given by the other party. Of course the monkeys are not really aware of the real value of an iPhone, but they are entirely aware of the value it has for them - in terms of food to be gained for it, and might well see and understand that the tourist is desperately in need of get it back.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Michele

As to the slight clues - that depends. Mathematics rolls performed by humans cannot depend on clues given by bystanders, yes.

Makes me wonder what skill you would use to perform a Clever Hans routine. Obviously it's not Mathematics, whether the one doing it is human or not. It's sort of a neighbor to cold reading, perhaps...