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Old 12-07-2016, 07:02 AM   #1
philosophyguy
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Default GM practices: handling unknown-to-character modifiers

I am wondering how GMs tend to handle success rolls with penalties that are unknown to the characters.

For an unmodified roll, it's easy to ask the player to just roll against their skill. If there is a standard penalty (e.g., a shock penalty of -2 for taking 2 points on injury since the last turn), the GM can ask the player to make a success roll at that specific penalty.

How do you handle success rolls when the exact magnitude of the penalty is unknown to the character? For instance, if a character is attempting a Streetwise roll to know something about a gang in the area, and the GM decides that there should be a task difficulty modifier of -4 because this gang is unusually secretive, do you:
a) Tell the player to roll against Streetwise-4,
b) Tell the player to roll against unmodified Streetwise and share their margin of success/failure, then adjust with the -4 modifier
c) Do something else

I usually do (a), but I recently got into a discussion about whether that gives away too much info to players, especially if there's something unusual about the situation that the character wouldn't know. It's one thing if the player assumes the penalty is small and it turns out to be a -4 instead of a -2. It's quite different if the player assumes there is a small penalty and it turns out that the penalty is -8 because there's something about the situation that the character is totally unaware of.
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Old 12-07-2016, 07:11 AM   #2
Kalzazz
 
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Default Re: GM practices: handling unknown-to-character modifiers

A or B

I sometimes do B, and give some minor but legit info on a success but not by needed margin, but not as much info as I'd give if they made the roll by enough
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Old 12-07-2016, 07:13 AM   #3
Gnome
 
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Default Re: GM practices: handling unknown-to-character modifiers

I usually do b), partially to hide information, but also partially because I like to have degree of success depend on margin of success.

For example, if you make Streetwise by at least 0 you know that the gang is called The Hatchet Crew, and they operate in the warehouse district.
If you make Streetwise by at least 4, you also know that they're primarily involved in extortion, smuggling and theft, they're led by the fearsome bandit Mad Mike McGee, and they have a hideout somewhere on 6th St.
If you make Streetwise by at least 8, you also know the exact location of the hideout, you know that The Hatchet Crew is secretly funded by Lord Shane, a local textile tycoon, and you know that Mad Mike McGee is really Michael Mortimer, wanted in Sacksville on murder charges.
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Old 12-07-2016, 07:18 AM   #4
Gollum
 
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Default Re: GM practices: handling unknown-to-character modifiers

I tend to use method B. But in two steps ... "Make a Streetwise skill roll, please."

1) If it is a failure, I don't add anything. That is a failure (unless the unknown modifier is a bonus, of course).
2) And if the roll is a success, then, I asked for the margin of success (or just glance at the dice to calculate it by myself).

That way, the player only know the minimum.
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Old 12-07-2016, 08:06 AM   #5
GodBeastX
 
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Default Re: GM practices: handling unknown-to-character modifiers

I tend to handle all modifiers all the time. Players just roll. Sometimes I will tell players some penalties that might be involved if they are knowledgeable enough on them. Like "It's dark, so you're going to be operating at a negative!"

I never tell players exactly what penalties and bonuses apply. Part of the reason is because I will fudge some things on player behalf that I thought was particularly clever.
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Old 12-07-2016, 08:25 AM   #6
trooper6
 
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Default Re: GM practices: handling unknown-to-character modifiers

I do B...sort of.

I expect my players to keep track of modifiers that are in their sphere of influence: hit location modifiers, shock, etc.

On the other hand, I don't tell them environmental modifiers...I'll give them descriptive indicators: the lock is crude and very simple; the beam is very narrow and slick with oil. I get my players in the habit of telling me how much they made or failed their roll by whenever they do anything.

So:
Me: There is a lock on the door. It's one you've seen a million times, a cheap simple lock.
Player: I'll attempt to pick the lock. ... I fail the roll by 2...
Me: You know the lock very well and get to work on it. As you insert your lock picks into the mechanism, you are surprised to find that the inside is rusted and it was a bit harder to pick than you thought it would be. But you adjust your technique and open it up in no time.

Also, like gnome, I give more info, better fluff based on margin of success...so MoS/MoF is just something I always want which allows me to keep the environmental modifiers secret.
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Old 12-07-2016, 08:47 AM   #7
malloyd
 
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Default Re: GM practices: handling unknown-to-character modifiers

Quote:
Originally Posted by philosophyguy View Post

I usually do (a), but I recently got into a discussion about whether that gives away too much info to players, especially if there's something unusual about the situation that the character wouldn't know.
I go with (a). It's a lot less trouble, I generally trust my players to at least try to compartmentalize in and out of character knowledge, and anyway I'd usually expect somebody to *notice* if a task was unexpectedly easy or hard when they tried it, so as long as you don't let them change their mind about attempting the roll when they hear the modifier it's not often giving them any information they wouldn't get from trying it.
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Old 12-07-2016, 08:50 AM   #8
Gnome
 
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Default Re: GM practices: handling unknown-to-character modifiers

Quote:
Originally Posted by malloyd View Post
I go with (a). It's a lot less trouble, I generally trust my players to at least try to compartmentalize in and out of character knowledge, and anyway I'd usually expect somebody to *notice* if a task was unexpectedly easy or hard when they tried it, so as long as you don't let them change their mind about attempting the roll when they hear the modifier it's not often giving them any information they wouldn't get from trying it.
One big piece of information you're giving them is whether or not it's worth using Luck (or Destiny Points, etc.).
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Old 12-07-2016, 10:49 AM   #9
starslayer
 
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Default Re: GM practices: handling unknown-to-character modifiers

I generally do b as a matter of course, because succeeding by 8 is better then doing it by 3.

I will generally go with a when success it failure will be immediately obvious.
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Old 12-07-2016, 11:15 AM   #10
Kelly Pedersen
 
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Default Re: GM practices: handling unknown-to-character modifiers

I tend to err on the side of giving the players the modifiers. There are a couple of reasons for this.

First, I think that a significant part of skill is actually the "meta-knowledge" about performing tasks. Someone who's good at the skill is more likely to know not only how to do it, but also more likely to gauge how likely they are to succeed. (You could give more details on modifiers to higher-skilled characters to be really realistic, but this feels like too much detail to me).

Second, I think there's a bit more emotional reward to being able to work out what you need to roll, and then see if you get that, rather than rolling and waiting to be told whether or not you made it or not.

Finally, as Gnome mentioned, knowing whether it's worth a use of Luck or not depends on knowing what you're shooting for. If the target number is 7, I'm far less likely to use Luck than if it was 11. If you're concealing modifiers, I think you should at the very least tell players whether or not their modified number is over or under 50%.

In general, I'd suggest only concealing modifiers if a) they legitimately stem from factors that the player can't know, and b) knowing the modifier would actually have an effect. For example, if a character is being attacked by an invisible foe, you can call for a Hearing roll at -2 to hear it coming and defend. The penalty on the Hearing roll meets point "a", certainly - if you don't know something is coming, there's no way to judge how hard hearing it is, but it doesn't really meet point "b" - if they fail the roll, they'll get hit, and know that someone's attacking them anyway, and if they succeed, they'll hear it and get a chance to defend.
Now, if a character was using some sort of ranged or area-effect attack to try to hit an invisible foe, I wouldn't tell them the penalty for range, because that meets both point "a" (if the attacker is invisible, they certainly don't know how far away they are), and point "b" (knowing the range penalty tells the attacker the distance to the invisible character, at least within a range band).
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