Lawful counterpart to Sidhe

[DangerousThing]

It's been a while since I've read Poul Anderson's _Three Hearts and Three Lions_, but in their confrontation with Fairy, it was said that humans were on the side of Law, except for some renegades and witches that fought with Chaos.

The Fey were definitely on the side of Chaos.

I'm not saying I agreed with that demarcation, but it worked for the story. It was man's belief in their religion and their iron that made the lands difficult for the fey.

[adm]

Hrnmmm, Perhaps some sort of angelic beings for law, and some sort of spider like beings for chaos....

[Anaraxes]

If it's inspired by Moorcock, then Law shouldn't be closely tied to Good, nor Chaos tied to Evil.

D&D had its heart in the right place defining those two axes of alignment, but our own culture skews those axes, so it's harder to keep the two concepts from entangling. In a game where it's just the Law-Chaos axis, I think it'd be wise to avoid -- or actively subvert -- assumptions about the nature of the Lawful and Chaotic beings.

Sidhe work better than spiders in this regard, as while most players will regard them with caution and mistrust, they're not assumed evil. You'd like the same to be true of the Lawful beings -- something not automatically assumed to be good.

Yes, you can make your angels fearful and destructive, but that's work that the game has to do just to overcome that assumption. Perhaps there's some other form to start with that doesn't absorb that work, but can just get straight into the intended game. Or else make that subversion a feature and go all in on it -- but then the game becomes Lawful Evil vs Chaotic Good, not just Law vs Chaos with Good/Evil irrelevant to the distinction. it might be better to mix demons in with the angels, and just have supernatural vs. natural. (Instead of angels, you might want something more like Jotun or Titans, supernatural creations of earlier phases of cosmology.)

That pushes the Sidhe into the nature spirit end of things. But if they represent Chaos, then you wind up with another built-in contradiction -- in most mythologies, Order is associated with the creation of the world, often enough out of primal Chaos. But you might invert that, and have the world and life as the bit of creation that got out of hand and is threatening stability of the Order. But the Lawful creatures can't just exterminate life, because eliminating it entirely would be damaging the perfect orderly eternal vision.

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by DangerousThing

It's been a while since I've read Poul Anderson's _Three Hearts and Three Lions_, but in their confrontation with Fairy, it was said that humans were on the side of Law, except for some renegades and witches that fought with Chaos.

The Fey were definitely on the side of Chaos.

I'm not saying I agreed with that demarcation, but it worked for the story. It was man's belief in their religion and their iron that made the lands difficult for the fey.

I remember that. That was supposed to be but it was goofed when it turned out that the enemy was Satan. Unless you redefine Old Scratch's characteristic it doesn't work because chaos was never considered His most important quality so much as Evil (except in theological speculations that say his first sin was rebelion).

[Sorenant]

Originally Posted by DangerousThing

It's been a while since I've read Poul Anderson's _Three Hearts and Three Lions_, but in their confrontation with Fairy, it was said that humans were on the side of Law, except for some renegades and witches that fought with Chaos.

I can't find a good source but I recall some African region had a similar idea in their spirituality.
If I'm not mistaken, instead of simple "good vs evil" they had "civilization vs wilderness". Civilization is safe and nurturing, where humans can thrive, thus it's "good". Wilderness is the opposite, a dangerous place where even the best men can easily die. Witches are considered powerful because they can live alone in the wilderness.

[Rolando]

many ancient cultures/religions used chaos vs order instead of good vs evil.

Chaos is sometimes the origin of everything, and order is the later came from chaos and the state where humans can live. Civilization keep chaos at bay and wilderness is nearer to chaos. Like the titans vs the Olympians, the Egyptians, mithraism and I think many other religions draw on the chaos of origin and end of everything and civilization as a stable state.

That is why I think the Romans and their civilized ways is a very good candidate as order vs the Sidhe chaos. It mirror the cultural conflict between celts and romans but can go deeper into the mystic and mythological aspect easily.

[thrash]

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

D&D had its heart in the right place defining those two axes of alignment, but our own culture skews those axes, so it's harder to keep the two concepts from entangling.

OD&D started with just the Law-Chaos axis, however. From the chart on Book 1, p. 9:

Law: Halflings, Treants, Unicorns, Pegasi, Hippogriffs,

Law or Neutral: Elves, Rocs, Dwarves/Gnomes, Centaurs.

Neutral: Nixies, Pixies, Dryads, Griffons, Animals, Wyverns, Hydrae, Purple Worms, Sea Monsters.

Neutral or Chaos: Orcs, Ogres, Dragons, Chimeras, MInotaurs, Giants.

Chaos: Goblins/Kobolds, Hobgoblins/Gnolls, Trolls, Wights, Wraiths, Ghouls, Mummies, Spectres, Vampires, Medusae, Manticores, Gargoyles, Gorgons.

Any: Men, Lycanthropes.

[David Johnston2]

D&D's law versus chaos was more like Poul Andersen than Moorcock before it went 8 way. "Chaos" was just a euphemism for "evil".

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by Anders

Putting together a setting inspired by Moorcock, so Law and Chaos will feature prominently. It's also a celtic-myth inspired setting and the Sidhe will represent Chaos. But I need a race to represent Law as well (humans are supposed to be the Balance between Law and Chaos). I've considered having a Lawful version of the Sidhe as well - all formality and courtly ceremony. But I've also thought about having some other race; maybe the Insect Men from Fantasy Folk.

With Moorcock as your inspiration, why not use the Vadhagh (Corum's race) or Nardagh (the ancestral enemies of the Vahdagh)?

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

D&D's law versus chaos was more like Poul Andersen than Moorcock before it went 8 way. "Chaos" was just a euphemism for "evil".

Technically, 9 way, if you count True Neutral as an alignment.

If you still want the Law = Good, Chaos = Evil dichotomy, take a look at the Warhammer setting. It's not quite right for Moorcock-inspired, but I think it does the best job of any fantasy RPG setting at getting the desperate, vicious fight between Manichean Good and Manichean Evil right. Some of the the Chaos gods and their servitors are really creepy.

Alternately, consider having the Sidhe as forces of Law (emphasis on courtliness, order, and careful adherence to oaths and vows) and literal or figurative "amorphous evil" for Chaos, where Chaos is represented by big slimy blob-like critters with too many eyes, tentacles, and mouths.

You might also consider "Law" to be the embodied forces of the existing social order (at least the good parts) and "Chaos" to be the embodied forces of unregulated social change (at least the bad parts).

Most importantly, consider WHY you want forces of Absolute Law/Chaos to be present in the campaign. What do they represent? What does the choice to be servants of Law/Chaos get your PCs? What happens when you get a player who wants to play an albino swordsman with a magic sword which eats souls?