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Old 12-14-2015, 07:35 AM   #1
Orochi-art
 
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Default Question batch #1

Here is first batch of questions that are bugging me.
(it would be great if you could start your replies with "Question X" so others can instantly know to which question you are referring to.

Question #1: Low-Tech Book: Blunt Trauma and Edged Weapons – Using this optional rule cutting weapon will have its damage type changed from cutting into crushing damage unless it can exceed twice the armor’s DR. (example: DR 6 plate armor is still DR 6 but you need to deal (exceed DRx2) 13 damage with a sword to deal cutting damage type. If you deal 12 or less; damage type will be crushing.)
When using cutting weapons, with crushing damage type, against chainmail and other flexible armor do I use armor’s full DR or do they gain -1/-2 vs. crushing depending on the armor in question?

Question #2: Low-Tech Book: Longsword damage typo? - Bastard sword and Thrusting Bastard Sword have +1 increase in both swing and thrust damage when comparing one-handed and two-handed use. That would imply that using a one-handed weapon in two hands gives you an extra “umph” that gives you +1 damage. When comparing tables for Longsword it gains increase only in thrust damage.

Question #3: Low-Tech Book: Longsword vs. Bastard sword reach – This question comes from my knowledge or lack of knowledge and assumptions. Also I know sword classification is opening good, old can of worms and there are different types of classifications.

When speaking of two handed swords I classify them in following manner:
- Longswords & bastard swords: 40-50 inch – sizes were comparable; bastard sword was little heavier
- great swords: 44-55 inch - Claymore – they required two hands to use, but are shorter than what we know as true two-handed swords.
- true two-handed swords: up to 5’10” - 70 inch - famous german zweihander

Longsword reach
swing 1
thrust 1,2

Bastard Sword reach
swing 1,2
thrust 2

Great sword reach
swing 1,2
thrust 2

How come longsword can only swing at reach 1 and how come bastard sword can only thrust at reach 2? If I use my classification how come bastard sword uses greatsword reach tables? In my mind bastard sword is similar to longsword, and book also classifies longsword as light Bastard Sword (low-tech, page 58). What were the bases for those statistics used in Low-Tech book?

Question #4: The Deadly Spring – Crossbows - I really liked that article and how it puts bows and crossbows in line with other, more modern weapons like guns and rifles (Instead of damage based of user’s Strength). It puts them all in same format. It gives cohesion to ranged weapons tables.

I can’t go into complex math so here goes my question, or favor to ask.
There is only one medieval crossbow and that one requires windlass/cranequin.

I need statistics for medieval crossbows, both wood and steel, based on ST 10 human.
Crossbow #1: two-hand pull
Crossbow #2: two-hand pull with stirrup
Crossbow #3: goat’s foot

So those are 6 crossbows (3 steel-limbed, 3 wooden-limbed)

Last edited by Orochi-art; 12-14-2015 at 07:44 AM.
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Old 12-14-2015, 08:34 AM   #2
DouglasCole
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Default Re: Question batch #1

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orochi-art View Post
Question #4: The Deadly Spring – Crossbows - I really liked that article and how it puts bows and crossbows in line with other, more modern weapons like guns and rifles (Instead of damage based of user’s Strength). It puts them all in same format. It gives cohesion to ranged weapons tables.

I can’t go into complex math so here goes my question, or favor to ask.
There is only one medieval crossbow and that one requires windlass/cranequin.

I need statistics for medieval crossbows, both wood and steel, based on ST 10 human.
Crossbow #1: two-hand pull
Crossbow #2: two-hand pull with stirrup
Crossbow #3: goat’s foot

So those are 6 crossbows (3 steel-limbed, 3 wooden-limbed)
Two-hand pull with no help is 8xBL, which is only 160 lbs - that probably includes the stirrup. If you have to span a crossbow using two hands but no way to brace it, you're probably looking at not much more than what you can pull with your arms, which is 2.5xBL - 50 lbs. This will get you nearly nothing for a medieval crossbow. Note that the sample provided was 750 lbs or so, and not terribly impressive due to short stroke and inefficient limbs. A goat's foot doubles Basic Lift, pushing draw weight supported to 320 lbs.

ST 10 is pretty poor for this sort of weapon. To span the sample Xbow (750-ish lbs) with a goat's foot you're looking at about 47 lbs of Basic lift, or ST 15 (15.3, but close enough).

Using the equivalent of Strongbow for Crossbows, you can span the crossbow with ST 13.

Thanks for the kind words about the article - I assume you have the v3 spreadsheets that take the math out of your hands?

I'll throw some designs together after work tonight.
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Old 12-14-2015, 09:09 AM   #3
Varyon
 
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Default Re: Question batch #1

#1: I don't think there's any official ruling on this, so it's up to the GM. I'd personally go with the reduced DR.

#2: This is likely an issue of resolution - the longsword (thanks to its lighter weight and shorter reach) shouldn't do as much damage as the bastard sword when swung. A blanket -1, however, probably overstates the effect, and would also leave the longsword doing less damage than the lighter, shorter broadsword, so they opted to only have the -1 apply to two-handed use.

#3: Another resolution issue. You basically end up with the progression Broadsword->Longsword->Bastard Sword->Greatsword, and the designers opted to give the Bastard Sword a longer Reach than the Longsword. There's not really any place for something between Longsword and Greatsword, however, so they opted to go with the same Reach statistics as the Greatsword.
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Old 12-14-2015, 09:20 AM   #4
Dustin
 
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Default Re: Question batch #1

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Originally Posted by Orochi-art View Post
Question #1: When using cutting weapons, with crushing damage type, against chainmail and other flexible armor do I use armor’s full DR or do they gain -1/-2 vs. crushing depending on the armor in question?
Use the armor's full DR - treating the cutting weapon as crushing to reduce DR up until it achieves DRx2 (and which DR?) and becomes cutting again is too much calculation in play.
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Old 12-14-2015, 09:45 AM   #5
Varyon
 
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Originally Posted by Dustin View Post
Use the armor's full DR - treating the cutting weapon as crushing to reduce DR up until it achieves DRx2 (and which DR?) and becomes cutting again is too much calculation in play.
You'd use the armor's DR vs Cut to determine how much damage is needed to avoid conversion to Cr. Default GURPS rules are "Subtract DR, minimum damage is 0." The "edge protection" in LT adds in "If damage is Cut, reduce it to Cr if basic damage doesn't exceed twice DR." Adding in "If armor is reduced against Cr, use this value to resist the above Cr damage" isn't too much more complexity. There could be the odd edge case where you'd have done more Injury if you'd rolled 1 point less damage, however.
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Old 12-14-2015, 09:48 AM   #6
Orochi-art
 
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Default Re: Question batch #1

Quote:
Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
ST 10 is pretty poor for this sort of weapon.

I assume you have the v3 spreadsheets that take the math out of your hands?
I have spreadsheets but Excel and I don't get along. Even with spreadsheets being automated there are too many options to take into consideration during construction.


How come ST 10 is poor? There is a certain phobia on these forums when it comes to giving characters higher stats :)

I always imagined that crossbows were made in a way that you could give average Joe a crossbow in hand and with little force he could load it. Stirrup, belt hook, goat's foot, and in the end windlass increased the maximum draw strength. That being said I imagined most crossbowmen as regular people with ST 11-12 after longer conditioning to draw the string.

https://archive.org/stream/Book_of_t...e/n81/mode/2up This is what I had in mind when it came to two-hand pull without stirrup. Maybe this has same effect as drawing with it. Dunno. Hope it helps.

Also thanks in advance.
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Old 12-14-2015, 12:49 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Orochi-art View Post
How come ST 10 is poor? There is a certain phobia on these forums when it comes to giving characters higher stats :)
1) When talking about crossbows, you're talking about trained military (often mercenaries) or athletic hunters - definitely out of the Average Joe argument zone.

2) The whole point of crossbows is being able to trade a longer draw time for more punch, while not suffering from having to hold the heavier draw.
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Old 12-14-2015, 01:04 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Orochi-art View Post
How come ST 10 is poor? There is a certain phobia on these forums when it comes to giving characters higher stats :)
I've never seen anyone argue that above-10 strength was unreasonable, except perhaps for particularly small characters.

Not all stats are normalized the same way...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orochi-art View Post
I always imagined that crossbows were made in a way that you could give average Joe a crossbow in hand and with little force he could load it. Stirrup, belt hook, goat's foot, and in the end windlass increased the maximum draw strength. That being said I imagined most crossbowmen as regular people with ST 11-12 after longer conditioning to draw the string.
You don't have to be strong to use a crossbow, but if you want to use a crossbow that isn't pitifully weak you need to either be very strong (because crossbows are usually less effective for their draw strength than bows) or use major mechanical aids.
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Old 12-14-2015, 07:38 PM   #9
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Default Re: Question batch #1

Question #1: I would use full DR because of draw-cuts – a slice across the target can be capable of cutting through flesh and into bone (say 4 points of cutting damage, x 1.5 for cutting modifier = 6 HP of injury = enough to cripple an arm or leg) is not necessarily going to inflict massive bruising against a cut-resistant target.

Question #2: I think the longsword not gaining bonus swing damage when used two-handed is deliberate. The longsword does not suffer the 0U Parry when used one-handed, so it already has an advantage over the bastard sword. I think doing less swing damage than a thrusting bastard sword is there to avoid the longsword being generally better than the bastard sword and making it obsolete.

Question #3: The terms “longsword” and “bastard sword” are labels of convenience, not meant to be a perfect match of real-world sword names. A medieval knight might see a GURPS bastard sword and a GURPS greatsword and call them both “swords of war”, despite there being a size-difference between the two. The terminology that works for historians is not necessarily the terminology that works for game-designers.

Going by your classifications, 40-50 inches for longswords and bastard swords allows a variation of 10 inches; 25% of 40 inches and 20% of 50 inches, this is not an insignificant difference. Think of the statistic line for “longsword” as representing a sword closer to 40 inches, and for “bastard sword” as representing a sword closer to 50 inches (in the 44-50 inch region where according to your classifications longsword & greatsword overlap). It's not a bug, it's a feature, because it allows “smaller longsword” and “bigger longsword”, even if it doesn't quite use those terms.
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Old 12-14-2015, 08:58 PM   #10
Peter Knutsen
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Default Re: Question batch #1

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruno View Post
1) When talking about crossbows, you're talking about trained military (often mercenaries) or athletic hunters - definitely out of the Average Joe argument zone.
ST is obviously trainable. I don't think the cultists object to fairly high ST values.
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