Using only GURPS Bio-Tech, how tough a critter can you create?

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

You left out the part where the opponent either needs to do this while warsuit guys is asleep or else also needs the ability to approach warsuit guy without getting killed, hold onto him despite his attempts to escape, and survive long enough to schlep him to a convenient cliff.

Because you are basically saying that a trained soldier in a TL12 warsuit can be defeated by a circus strongman. And I think the real result would be a dead strongman who never got nearly close enough to lay an over-muscled finger on that warsuit.

'Big enough and strong enough' would seem to include being able to stop escape attempts and carry the suit while holding a grapple on it. Did you really think I just meant 'strong enough to lift the suit'? That's certainly not what I said. The OP asked for a way through a warsuit using Bio-Tech, so I gave one.

[Mailanka]

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

I think that is a giant, ~1500 point munchkin. Could it kill a warsuit by the method described? Sure... in the same way that a one hour self defense class can teach you to stop a knife-wielding mugger.

The thing is huge, obvious, vulnerable, and has no ranged attack. They better outnumber the warsuits a dozen to one, because most will get cut down well before reaching melee range. And let's not even consider what happens when those warsuits fly !!

Okay, sure, you're right: No "scary bug beastie" designed via realistic biotech methods is going to be a serious threat to realistic TL 12 military doctrines.

Nonetheless, "Space marines vs bugs" is a time-honored, beloved genre, and many of the fans of that genre want a bit of an exploration of their bugs and somewhat realistic military doctrines.

An army of those gigapedes vs a squad of space marines (given the right gear and tech) is quite an interesting fight... especially when you realize the gigapede has IQ 14 and isn't bestial. Each of those bastards is smarter than an augmented human in a warsuit. They could be tactical. They could lure their enemy into choke points where they have an advantage. They could ambush. They could leverage that strength into avalanches and such.

This would be quite a nice horror scenario, actually.

[Otaku]

Originally Posted by Mailanka

An army of those gigapedes vs a squad of space marines (given the right gear and tech) is quite an interesting fight... especially when you realize the gigapede has IQ 14 and isn't bestial. Each of those bastards is smarter than an augmented human in a warsuit. They could be tactical. They could lure their enemy into choke points where they have an advantage. They could ambush. They could leverage that strength into avalanches and such.

This would be quite a nice horror scenario, actually.

Except if they aren't bestial and are IQ 14... why not just let them have some advanced technology?

If we are going for "bugs vs. aliens", the idea is that the bugs are inhuman. They don't need to be "dumb", but should probably be bestial. Some beasts are quite clever, and can use tactics... but if they are really as smart as is it sounds like you want them to be (maybe I am reading too much into it)... wouldn't it turn into HISHE Jurrasic Park and even if they couldn't invent the weapons, they'd figure out how to use a few (biology permitting)?

[Mailanka]

Originally Posted by Otaku

Except if they aren't bestial and are IQ 14... why not just let them have some advanced technology?

If we are going for "bugs vs. aliens", the idea is that the bugs are inhuman. They don't need to be "dumb", but should probably be bestial. Some beasts are quite clever, and can use tactics... but if they are really as smart as is it sounds like you want them to be (maybe I am reading too much into it)... wouldn't it turn into HISHE Jurrasic Park and even if they couldn't invent the weapons, they'd figure out how to use a few (biology permitting)?

Horror critters tend to have this creepy level of intellect, particularly if they are beasties. I mean, one of the great "Oh crap!" moments in Jurassic Park is when the raptors open the door. Realizing that, say, the hissing, spitting alien beastie is, in fact, goading people into ambushes and such, watching their prey with a "malevolent intellect."

But you are, of course, correct. Just going over that gigapede template again, there are no disadvantages at all. Not only aren't they bestial, but they're not even bloodthirsty or even callous. They're actually about as nice as humans (perhaps slightly less, as some people argue that humans have Pacifism: Reluctant Killer by default, and these do not). And at a racial IQ of 14, if there were swarms of them, they would rapidly develop a highly advanced civilization, which means our first encounter with them would probably involve them waving one of their many horrifying strikers, saying "Hullo!" in an exaggerated British accent, complaining about how difficult our form of communication is with their mouth full of row after row of spiny teeth, and then offer to engage in an exchange of culture and knowledge, confessing a fascination for Jon Bon Jovi music and offering us the secret to evironmentally clean energy.

Which might defeat the whole "horror of the gigapede" thing.

[martinl]

Originally Posted by Wavefunction

Rather obviously...

I was thinking more head-to-head combat.

I'm not sure if Bio-tech has explicitly possible, but at TL 12 bioengineering it seems plausible to have something grow solid lumps of plastic explosive in carefully designed shapes at the end long tentacles. Biological shaped charges. Make them sticky and detachable like a lizard's tail, slap them on, and ....

OK, actually the Warsuit guy shoots you long before you close.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Mailanka

Okay, sure, you're right: No "scary bug beastie" designed via realistic biotech methods is going to be a serious threat to realistic TL 12 military doctrines.

Part of the problem of course is that TL 12 is ridiculous. There aren't any "realistic" TL 12 bioweapons or bioanything worth mentioning. Pretty everything tops out at 11.

[Otaku]

Originally Posted by Mailanka

Which might defeat the whole "horror of the gigapede" thing.

Well, still works for a horror/comedy hybrid. Think of the "celebrities" known for outrageous behavior... and now make them one of those things. "He was so mad at the paparazzi he punched a whole through their van, then for kicks he did... he did... I don't know what but it looked horribly disgusting through the whole." A strong part of the horror should be the realization of how many terrible things we do that are oddly "socially acceptable", or at least how quickly they could snowball when done by something lacking human constraints.

Bit curious if your comment means you did or did not take my advice to look up How It Should Have Ended and their take on Jurassic Park.

Oh, back on topic... have we considered lowering the Tech levels involved? I ask this after claiming I was going to bow out, I know. >_<

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by Rupert

'Big enough and strong enough' would seem to include being able to stop escape attempts and carry the suit while holding a grapple on it. Did you really think I just meant 'strong enough to lift the suit'? That's certainly not what I said. The OP asked for a way through a warsuit using Bio-Tech, so I gave one.

No, I was not actually talking ST vs ST - although in your post you did indeed start with ST 22 (compared to an average human wearing a warsuit, with ST 50), so I am not sure why the assumption of ST 22 would be confusing.

I was mostly referring to the fact that presumably the Warsuit is equipped with something other than a Swiss Army Knife and a bad attitude. With TL 12 weaponry, Warsuit guy should be blowing big holes in biotech guy long before he gets into grapple range.

Plus, in the best case, this massive breeding program is only good for about one observed battle. Because for the second battle those Warsuits will fly, and will have some type of weapon chest-mounted so that any grapple attempt just ensures that they can be guaranteed of not missing once the grapple starts. And that retrofit will be much, much faster than breeding some new bio-monster.

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by Mailanka

Nonetheless, "Space marines vs bugs" is a time-honored, beloved genre, and many of the fans of that genre want a bit of an exploration of their bugs and somewhat realistic military doctrines.

Absolutely, but those scenarios are predicated on the "bugs" being able and willing to lose 10, 100, even a 1000 of them for every space marine killed. They also usually imply the use of the bugs natural advantages - stealth, self-repair, camouflage, etc. The original post requests something entirely different - a race divided into TL12 ultratech and TL 4- biotech, nonetheless with parity in head to head combat. There is a reason you have not seen this in fiction - it is the slaughter of one side.

Originally Posted by Mailanka

An army of those gigapedes vs a squad of space marines (given the right gear and tech) is quite an interesting fight... especially when you realize the gigapede has IQ 14 and isn't bestial. Each of those bastards is smarter than an augmented human in a warsuit. They could be tactical. They could lure their enemy into choke points where they have an advantage. They could ambush. They could leverage that strength into avalanches and such.

This would be interesting, except that OP is describing a race divided, so it is unlikely that the biotech side will have substantial numerical superiority. Plus, he implied (or outright stated) that he is looking for head to head parity through innate ability rather than tactical means. I have already suggested tactical methods, and the OP rejected that solution.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

Absolutely, but those scenarios are predicated on the "bugs" being able and willing to lose 10, 100, even a 1000 of them for every space marine killed. They also usually imply the use of the bugs natural advantages - stealth, self-repair, camouflage, etc. The original post requests something entirely different - a race divided into TL12 ultratech and TL 4- biotech, .

No. He was talking about TL 4 in stuff other than biotech. Not that it helps because realistic biotech still sucks when it comes to doing damage to metal.