RAW question: pi-, pi, pi+ and pi++ are all the same on vitals?

[Z09SS]

As a longtime player of 3e I remember that the damage mods for projectile caliber apply in addition to the hit location modifiers.

It's explicitly stated in the 3e High Tech.

4e doesn't explicitly say it, but is it still true?

Does a pi++ hit do 3x to vitals or 6x in 4e?

[mlangsdorf]

Vitals damage is always x3 in GURPS 4e, replacing the weapon's damage multiplier.

[ravenfish]

The wording used on p.399 is "increase the wounding modifier.... to x3". So the x3 multiplier replaces the original- they don't both apply.

[AlexanderHowl]

It is the same with a hit to the Brain.

[Z09SS]

Thanks!

I was reading it correctly then.

Every so often the 3e conventions bubble back up and I can't play 4e for a bit.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

It is the same with a hit to the Brain.

....and it produces dubious results with a 4D+1 P- round like the 4.6mm one used in the HKMP1A1 doing more damage to the brain than a 4D P++ round liek a 20 gauge shotgun slug.

It doesnb't come up that often but I still apply P-class modifiers to Brain and Vitals as a House Rule.

[Tyneras]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

....and it produces dubious results with a 4D+1 P- round like the 4.6mm one used in the HKMP1A1 doing more damage to the brain than a 4D P++ round liek a 20 gauge shotgun slug.

It doesnb't come up that often but I still apply P-class modifiers to Brain and Vitals as a House Rule.

I've been doing the same, for the same reasons.

[Say, it isn't that bad!]

Realistically, the two multipliers should probably be multiplied together. From a practicality perspective, it was probably judged as too lethal.

[Tomsdad]

Rupert came up with a good suggestion in the other current thread to treat the attack type injury mod like adding CF multipliers when in combination with the location mod to get an overall combined multiplier. so Pi- is -0.5, Pi+ is +0.5, pi++ is +1 etc

So a Pi+ to the skull will be 4+0.5 = x4.5 after the DR, Pi++ would be 4+1 = x5, Pi- would be 4-0.5 = x3.5

[Varyon]

An alternative option would be to rescale things to follow the Size and Speed/Range (SSR) Table, which would also allow for something intermediate between pi- and pi, as well as letting you go up or down arbitrarily. So, pi+ would be +1 SSR (x1.5), a hit to the Vitals would be +3 SSR (x3), and a hit to the brain (via Skull or Eye) would be +4 SSR (x5). Pi+ to the Vitals would be a total +4 SSR (x5), while Pi+ to the Skull would be +5 SSR (x7). For the case of 4d+1 Pi- vs 4d Pi++ against brain, 4.6mm is probably -1 SSR (x0.7), although a case for -2 SSR (x0.5) could be made. That means either +3 SSR (x3) or +2 SSR (x2) for a brain hit from the former, +6 SSR (x10) for a brain hit from the latter. Average penetrating damage against the Skull for each is 13 vs 12, with resulting wounding of 39 or 26 HP vs 120 HP. Treating as CF's will keep things toned down a bit, of course (total +2.5 WM - x3.5 - for the 4.6mm, for average 45.5 HP wounding, vs +5 WM - x6 - for the shotgun, for average 72 HP wounding).

I think Conditional Injury has something like this hidden in it, but I'd need to check the article again to see if the modifiers for skull/vitals replace or combine with the modifiers for weapon type.