Riding Combat

[JohnPaulB]

EDIT: This has been transferred from TFT section. http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=188875

I have questioned the horse's momentum and the rules of engagement for it.

IT p 130 says Riding animals follow the same rules for engagement and disengagement as do foot warriors, with one exception: If a horse (normally a 2-hex creature) moves more than 8 hexes in a single turn and then engages a single man on foot, treat the horse as though it were a 3-hex creature. That is, the man on foot is engaged, but the horse and rider are not. This applies only to a single footman – two men on the ground would engage a horseman. The reason for this is the extra momentum of a rider at high speed. A single man cannot reasonably hope to engage a charging horseman – but he can engage one who was trotting or standing still, without the momentum to carry himself right past. The same applies to any other 2-hex riding animal.

It also states the following options for Riders and Mounts:
Move up to its full MA.
Move up to half its MA, and/or attack.


With the idea of a horse and rider is not engaged by a 1-hex figure (perhaps a soldier), it should be able to go the horse’s full MA right past the standing soldier and the soldier can’t do anything about it. I have a proposal for a ride-by that allows an attack by the horseman or the soldier.

The horseman’s player announces that he is doing a ride-by at a gallop (and must move at least 8 hexes up to the target,) with the intent of attacking (or the soldier attacking if so inclined) and then continuing past at least 8 more hexes this turn. [put a marker down if you wish, to remind you that this is a mid-move for the horse.]

During the Action Phase, do all combats as normal. If the soldier drops, he is prone. If the horse is killed, it drops in the next hex later this turn. If the rider is killed, roll to see if he immediately falls and lands in the next hex later this turn (or perhaps a few hexes further down if he is dragged by the horse).

After all combat is done this turn, the last thing is that the horse is placed at the end spot the horseman’s player had intended. Then the next turn starts.

If going that extra distance in #3 gets the horse "engaged" with another soldier while having moved less than 8 additional hexes, then it is engaged with the new 1-hex figure.


This seems to work if there are a few horses in the battle. I don't know how well it will work for a cavalry squad.

[JohnPaulB]

Originally Posted by madhopper50

I've always wanted mounted combat rules for melee. Seems to me all the discussion is on attacking, none on defense, terrain effects on movement or pike defense like in "Braveheart". More importantly is this all feasible on a 28' x 56' (7 hex x 14 hex) Melee map?

Yes, I just wanted to get the initial Ride-by concept worked out first.

[JohnPaulB]

How about this. I just had the idea of putting this into the Turn Sequence of ITL p 101. It is a rough concept that needs some vetting:

(7) Ride-by. Any charging horseman which became adjacent to one single hex figure may continue its charge after its own combat and all other (4) Actions have been done this turn. This additional movement may be up to the full extent of the beast’s MA.

If it comes in contact with another single hex figure this turn, the turn ends with the horseman and opponent figure being adjacent and ready for combat next turn (noting that the horseman, if he survives, may continue his charging as per this Ride-by rule.

In this way the horseman can charge & ride-by and charge some more. If the post Ride-By involves another 'engagement' before the turn ends, then their combat starts off the next turns' action and that horseman can continue his charging.

[Shostak]

Originally Posted by JohnPaulB

(7) Ride-by. Any charging horseman which became adjacent to one single hex figure may continue its charge after its own combat and all other (4) Actions have been done this turn. This additional movement may be up to the full extent of the beast’s MA.

If it comes in contact with another single hex figure this turn, the turn ends with the horseman and opponent figure being adjacent and ready for combat next turn (noting that the horseman, if he survives, may continue his charging as per this Ride-by rule.

In this way the horseman can charge & ride-by and charge some more. If the post Ride-By involves another 'engagement' before the turn ends, then their combat starts off the next turns' action and that horseman can continue his charging.

John Paul, This makes it sound like he can only make one ride-by attack. Is that what you intend?

[JohnPaulB]

Originally Posted by Shostak

John Paul, This makes it sound like he can only make one ride-by attack. Is that what you intend?

I was imagining that there would be one attack via a ride-by and possibly a second attack if the horseman instigated one.

I'm not sure if that second attack should be in Turn 1 or should it start Turn 2.

I am suggesting that if horseman successfully survives the second Ride-by (whether combat is in first or second turn), he can continue doing Ride-bys like this until player ends it.

These are only theories until it is born-out in practice.

I think that Timm should continue developing his charge theory until it produces a practical rule also.

[Shostak]

Some thoughts:

• Perhaps a rider should be allowed several ride-by attacks, as per the suggestion of others.
• If a rider makes multiple attacks, they should each suffer a DX penalty. The easy way is to give them all the standard -6 untalented two weapon attack penalty, and the more complicated way is to make each successive attack suffer a greater penalty.
• Those being attacked might get a roll similar to the HTH initiation roll, with a 5 meaning they avoid the attack and a 6 meaning they get a free attack on the rider or mount.
• Any target of a ride-by attack who has a ready pole weapon forgoes that roll and gets a first attack.

[JohnPaulB]

Originally Posted by Shostak

Some thoughts:

• Perhaps a rider should be allowed several ride-by attacks, as per the suggestion of others.
• If a rider makes multiple attacks, they should each suffer a DX penalty. The easy way is to give them all the standard -6 untalented two weapon attack penalty, and the more complicated way is to make each successive attack suffer a greater penalty.
• Those being attacked might get a roll similar to the HTH initiation roll, with a 5 meaning they avoid the attack and a 6 meaning they get a free attack on the rider or mount.
• Any target of a ride-by attack who has a ready pole weapon forgoes that roll and gets a first attack.

If we consider a swing each in a combat encounter as 5 seconds (1 turn), then if we do a ride-by that involves another combat encounter I fudged it as part of

I was considering a swing each in a combat encounter to be the traditional 5 seconds (1 turn) and that the ride-by (the continuing of the movement to be similar in concept to extending the movement to Forced Retreat movement at end of turn.

Extending the charge into another ride-by combat theoretically extends the turn another 5 seconds status which seems pushing the limits of the Turn Time mechanics.

Originally Posted by Shostak

John Paul, This makes it sound like he can only make one ride-by attack. Is that what you intend?

Just clarifying any confusion I might have made.

Horseman Joe is intending to go across the entire football field, occasionally hacking lone soldiers.

• Turn 1 he charges 20 hexes. [Player declares he is charging and goes at least 8 hexes.]
  
• Turn 2 Player says he continues charging and at 10 hexes charges Soldier A. They do combat and Horseman Joe survive. Everyone else does their combats and at nearly end of turn Horseman Joe continues his ride-by for another 4 hexes.
  
• Turn 3 [Player declares that he is continuing the charge (which started 34 hexes ago)] he continues charging and at 6 hexes encounters Soldier B. Horseman Joe isn't interested in taking a swing at Soldier B, but the solder takes a swing at the Horseman as he goes by. Horseman Joe gets hit, but survives. Everyone else does their combats and at nearly end of turn Horseman Joe continues his ride-by for another 4 hexes and engages Soldier C. This turn now ends.
  
• Turn 4 [Player declares his is continuing his charge.]. This turn starts with this charge attack. Soldier C and Horseman do combat. Everyone else does their combats and at nearly end of turn Horseman Joe continues his ride-by for another 12 hexes or engages Soldier D in 6 hexes. If he engages Soldier D, the fight continues next turn.

Horseman Joe can make many ride-by attacks on his journey to the end of the field, just in little turn chunks of 2 ride-by combats in one turn.


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What I suggested here is just my trying to come up with a mechanic for this subject and I am glad that there are alternates to be developed.

[Shostak]

Originally Posted by JohnPaulB

Extending the charge into another ride-by combat theoretically extends the turn another 5 seconds status which seems pushing the limits of the Turn Time mechanics.

Forgive me if I am misunderstanding, but I thought that the point of your suggested rules was to create greater resolution by dividing up a single turn and its phases into smaller increments and allowing new actions within them. If you are breaking movement that could have occurred in one turn into two segments, there is no need to assume that those two segments take twice as long (two turns) to occur.