Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Board and Card Games > Car Wars > Car Wars Old Editions

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-23-2021, 01:01 PM   #61
43Supporter
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Default Re: Silly Cars

Quote:
Originally Posted by juris View Post
I just remember that VG2 chopper with 4 front facing VFRPs explicitly designed to remove the crazy amount of metal armor most choppers had.
The Airtech _Strafe_ -- and it didn't work very well at removing Metal; rockets never did.

Now, if one wants a _Strafe_ which *can* remove Metal in job-lots:

'39 Strafe

B: St. Heli. [Free Side Door R] | 40,000|40,000 | 1,200|1,200 | [24(6)]
P: Su. w/ PC, SC [23,000 PF] | 42,500|82,500 | 4,000|5,200 | 16|16(0)
D: Pi., Gn. | 0|82,500 | 300|5,500 | 4|20(0)
W/A: 3x 3-sp. EWP [1 ea. L, R, U] | 6,000|88,500 | 1,200|6,700 | 0|20(0)(0)x3
12x MG [HD or Expl. am.] [F] | 24,000|112,500 | 3,000|9,700 | 12|23(0)(3)x3
7x Link [1] | 350|112,850 | 0|9,700 | 0|23(0)
6x CB10 (3x L: 1 ea 2 CBs) [U] | 900|113,750 | 900|10,600 | 6|23(6)
IR | 4,000|117,750 | 100|10,700 | 1|24(6)
Ext. Dr. Con. | 1,000|118,750 | 50|10,750 | ---
2x TC | 2,000|120,750 | 0|10,750 | ---
4x Ext. Rot. [2 ea. M, S] | 2,500|123,250 | 500|11,250 | ---
A: F: 270 pts. FPP | 16,200|139,450 | 3,780|15,030 |
R: 10 pts. FPP [M]; 10 pts. FPP [S] | 2,100|141,550 | 140|15,170 |
EWP: 3x 10-pt. FPP | 600|142,150 | 120|15,290 |
[F, U: 50; L, R, B: 45; T: 35] [Acc.: 10; TS: 165; HC: 3]

[1: F MGs; 3x ea. EWP MGs; L & R EWP MGs; F & U EWP MGs; all MGs]

Up-Armored Opt.: add 110 pts. LRM arm.
[F, U: 21/50; L, R, B: 18/45; T: 14/35]
[Acc.: 5; TS: 135] | +9,075|151,225 | +7,700|22,990 |

>;)
__________________
"Dale *who*?"

The Jeremy Clarkson Debate Course:
1) I'm Right. 2) You're Wrong. 3) The End.
43Supporter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2021, 02:41 PM   #62
juris
 
juris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: CA
Default Re: Silly Cars

Damn - math error - yes you are correct. A 15 point ram would remove 5 points of metal, and it's easy to do with bumper spikes

Losing 5 points of metal will let you kill most metal armored cars

Bumper spikes on oversized vehicles are just mean, underutilized and absurd. A 2.5 mph ram with bumper spikes from a DM 18 big rig will explode anyone it hits (A super truck PP can pull 80,000 lbs)



Quote:
Originally Posted by swordtart View Post
Juris:
Typo I think. A 15 point ram will knock off 5 points of metal (subject to the maximum of half the current armour), which as you say is plenty.

I like bumper spikes, they are underused in my opinion. As you also apply the DM of the vehicle to bumper spike damage a rig with bumper spikes can trash smaller vehicles with such low speed collisions that it doesn't even take any itself. A 5mph collision does only 1d-4 (minimum 1 average 1) but 1d-4 + 1d6 (not 2d6-4) with a bumper spike averages 4.5 damage. A fully loaded rig might have a DM of 20.

.
juris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2021, 03:53 PM   #63
swordtart
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Default Re: Silly Cars

43: Finding that format very difficult to follow.

Your MGs with explosive ammo aren't going to remove Metal any more effectively than any other explosive weapon (and thus any rocket). The VFRP is a bit niche for my liking, but I think you could do better with 12 MMLs instead of your MGs with explosive ammo.

The only way to remove more metal is to get more dice on the target. You could do that by making your weapon more accurate and laser guided rockets are one of the most accurate weapons in the game. Of course laser guiding small rockets becomes very expensive but a single +1 computer makes the MML as accurate as the MG. When you amortize the cost across 12 of them you make an overall saving of $2000.

The other way would be to increase the number of dice you roll, which is the usual weight/space question. Explosive MG ammo is 5lb per shot which is better than the VFRP, but MML ammo (which is explosive be default) only 2.5lb per shot (and $30 per shot cheaper to boot).

You do have half the number of shots with the MMLs, but if you are talking about "rapid" stripping of Metal more than ten turns of shooting is too long anyway.

Of course you can do all the usual min maxing and the RL is cheaper than a pair of MMLs.

But let's revisit the VFRP. You really need to compare it to the quad MGs as a group. You can't have more than one per EWP but since you can shoot off 6 rockets per turn each is equivalent firepower to 6 MGs. You can use the extra space left to add in a spare Magazine allowing you 60 shots (only 20 less than the 4 MGs). You need an HR Computer to get the same accuracy, but again this can be shared by all three VFRPs.

So each VFRP+Mag = $4150, 665lb, 4 spaces.
Each quad MG w/explosive ammo + link = $8050, 1000lb, 4 spaces.

With the HR computer you are still saving around $8K and about 1000 lb.

I think the ability to throw 18D for 10 turns is better than being able to throw 12D for 20 turns if your aim is to strip metal quickly.

Last edited by swordtart; 09-23-2021 at 04:08 PM.
swordtart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-24-2021, 03:22 PM   #64
43Supporter
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Default Re: Silly Cars

Quote:
Originally Posted by swordtart View Post
43: Finding that format very difficult to follow.
It's formatted for Notepad, at 72 characters across, leaving a 1/4" border on all sides. Unfortunately, this forum software doesn't recognize multiple uses of the Space bar, so it ruins the formatting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swordtart View Post
Your MGs with explosive ammo aren't going to remove Metal any more effectively than any other explosive weapon (and thus any rocket). The VFRP is a bit niche for my liking, but I think you could do better with 12 MMLs instead of your MGs with explosive ammo.
The MGs are far more accurate than rockets -- 21/36, vs. 15/36, and the VFRP is even worse (TH *9* -- 10/36). One could LG the rockets, but that puts the costs through the roof -- $250 for every rocket ($200 for the LGL, and $50 for the link [UACFH p. 45]), never mind the cost of the laser; where the Expl.-ammo MG is only $500 per gun. (I considered an AC-w/-explosive ammo variant, but that one was also a spendy bit of kit.) Adding TCs is a wash.

Also, as noted., one gets 20 shots of MG, vs. 10 of MML; so one can rack up the sustained-fire bonuses.

One could up the EWPs to 4-sp. on a Std. Helicopter; but then one can add a 4th Expl. MG to each, for an additional 3d6 of metal-removing goodness. (Or one could swap to paired RR-HESH mounts....)
__________________
"Dale *who*?"

The Jeremy Clarkson Debate Course:
1) I'm Right. 2) You're Wrong. 3) The End.
43Supporter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-24-2021, 05:14 PM   #65
swordtart
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Default Re: Silly Cars

Quote:
Originally Posted by 43Supporter View Post
$250 for every rocket ($200 for the LGL, and $50 for the link [UACFH p. 45])
You link the weapon, not each round of ammunition. The original Strafe's VFRPs were all laser guided. The targeting computer comment was on the assumption you didn't bother laser guiding. If you have the laser guidance you need a targeting computer just to match my accuracy (targeting computers are only a wash if you start at the same point). If I buy an HRSWC, you are forced to buy a Cyberlink to obtain the same to hit number - not at all equivalent.

You can certainly add 4 space EWPs but your extra MG costs and weighs far more than my extra magazine. It's not so much the extra cost of explosive ammo as such (it's a helo so spendy anyway) it is the extra weight. Since you added SC & PCs so I am assuming you found the weight was becoming a problem, adding another 250lb per gun is going to be an issue. For my 240lb I double the magazine. You add 1/3 to your firepower, which is still only 2/3rds of mine.

As I said each of your quads would weigh over 350lb more than the VFRP + extra magazine. Another 1000lb will put further constraint on your armour if you plan on keeping as much else of the Strafe as the original (why the hell it bothers with CBs is beyond me (I guess they had 6 cargo spaces they felt they HAD to use up).

If I read your numbers correctly your 12 MG version is $141K. The book Strafe (with laser guidance) is only $134K by my calculations (I think the VG2 price is based on the older VFRP price as I couldn't get it to add up to the $119K quoted). With the 7K difference I have lots of options.

Going RR (or RL) is another kettle of fish. It's not the helo you could have put up, it's the one you did that we are discussing. Happy to see an alternative, but I can't really comment on the viability of a design that hasn't been presented.

Last edited by swordtart; 09-24-2021 at 05:21 PM.
swordtart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-24-2021, 09:47 PM   #66
Racer
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: London, UK
Default Re: Silly Cars

Another silly thing that used to get me was the amount of players who would happily use LGL on a Cycle , but bawk at getting even a SWC to use in conjunction with it ?

So +$2,000 on disposable munitions ( +$3,000 or +$6,000 for VFRP ) , plus +$1,550 or more for Tuned Targeting Laser & Link ?? Not to mention the +50lb weight for the TL .

On top that , to realistically mount a VFRP on a Hvy. Cycle you need to have a CA - which further bumps up the price ...

Having to explain the simple logic of a one time outlay of +$500 or +$2,500 for HRSWC to grown players in the early 1990's baffled me . I think the saw all the Laser Guided weapons footage from Gulf War One & thought 'oh that's so cool' without doing any maths on overall design .

This is why from late '90's onwards , we've had to get players to get permission from Duel Master before using LG in any of our standard Car Wars games . Being blown away by opposition in vehicles less than half the cost of yours OR you twin Front VFRPs & Turreted RL being rendered unusable because your IRTL is nullified by two relatively cheap HDSSs with Hot Smoke .
You would not believe the amount of moaning we endured about that one ...

So long as it has some Fire Protection or Component Armour , a RL-HRSWC combo can be a very viable option for a Road Hvy. Cycle .
__________________
Five Gauss Guns on a Camper !!!
The Resident Brit .

Last edited by Racer; 09-24-2021 at 09:52 PM.
Racer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-24-2021, 10:11 PM   #67
Racer
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: London, UK
Default Re: Silly Cars

On the Stafe Metal stripping Helicopter issue , many many players fail to note that both Transport AND Standard Helicopters can mouth 4 Space EWPs ( page 104 CWC 2.5 , page 91 UACFH ) .

So Standard Chopper can mount Blast Cannons Front & in EWPs L , R & Under . All loaded with HESH ammo of course ;-)

A Small Chopper with a Standard Power Plant , 3 HESH RRs with Magazines in 3 Space EWPs - and perhaps a fourth one Front - can cause horrendous damage disproportionate to it's size & cost vs larger flying vehicles with Metal Armour .

[Edit] UACFH also states that EWPs can now mount Magazines for their weapons in main body of the Vehicle . So those Side & Under mounts on a Standard Chopper can have those extra mags taken from it's six Cargo Spaces & still use 3 Space EWPs for VFRPs or other three space weapons .
Turreted Auto Cannon with mag in body , two ACs in Streamlined 4 Space EWPs (again mags in body) , on a 200mph CACR Chopper , is an extremely nasty surprise to pull on those lumbering 135mph Helis with EWPs ... *evil*
__________________
Five Gauss Guns on a Camper !!!
The Resident Brit .

Last edited by Racer; 09-24-2021 at 10:40 PM.
Racer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2021, 02:20 AM   #68
swordtart
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Default Re: Silly Cars

Flippin' 'eck Racer I hadn't spotted the new ruling wrt. EWPs having body mounted mags. With the somewhat bizarre ruling that helos can mount weaponry in cargo spaces it does make EWPs overly effective. Given the infinite capacity of choppers frames the limit was always space (that was left after the plant).

I think the Strafe needs a complete makeover (and since it's VG2 it's bound to be illegal anyway). Sounds like a project for a wet Sunday :)

EDIT:
Ok, maybe a Saturday :)

STRAFE 2041 by Swordtart
Std Helo; Super PP with PCs;
Pilot, Gunner with Xtra Driver Controls and HRSWC (to TL)
TL + LGL (F)
3 x 3 Space EWP (L, R, U) each with VFRP with 30 LG munitions facing F and 10pts FP Armour
VFRP with 30 LG munitions (F)
3 CB (U).
280 pts FP Armour
4 VFRP Extra Mag (each with 30 LG munitions)
4 links (all CBs, L+R VFRP to TL, U+F VFRP to TL, All VFRP to TL)
Cargo 50lb, no space.

$168600 14000lb
HC 2, ACC 10, TS 180

The original STRAFE was a viable attack chopper but it suffered from some unusual design decisions.
The IR TL proved to be less effective against smoke than originally anticipated and Hot Smoke meant you needed a clear line of sight anyway. We have saved the unnecessary cost.

Our UK customers pointed out that there was little point in precision Laser Guidance if the laser wasn't pointing in the right direction, so we have upgraded to a dedicated HR computer to the laser for the gunner. Of course customers can configure targeting computers to their own needs.

Our US customers wanted deeper magazines and with the benefit of recent technological advancements we have been able to accommodate them with an extra magazine for each VFRP giving an all-up 240 rounds. We needed to remove 3 CBs, but they were rarely used where the STRAFE was within its design envelope hunting down metal armoured foes (as an option we can LG those and link them to the TL for precision bombing).

Naturally all this improvement comes at a cost. We needed to upgrade the plant to preserve the performance (but in doing so we managed to uplift the armour and increase the "glovebox" cargo capacity from 33lb to 50lb). 120 more LG rounds is also a significant expense. The sticker price increased significantly (nearly 30%), but our market research reported that this was acceptable in order to achieve the benefit and as existing owners would rather have those LG VFRP rounds on the platform for ready use than in storage in the hangar.

For those on a tighter budget look out for the options coming later this season.

Last edited by swordtart; 09-25-2021 at 04:39 PM. Reason: Corrected the missing VFRP in the front - Cheers Racer
swordtart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2021, 05:40 AM   #69
swordtart
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Default Re: Silly Cars

STRAFE 2041(M) by Swordtart

Replace PCs with SCs,
Replace each LG VFRP with 3 MGs with 20 explosive rounds each,
Add a link to each set of 3 MGs
Remove all VFRP extra magazines,
Remove Targeting Laser,
Replace HRSWC with Cyberlink to one of the front MGs,
Cargo 3 spc, 326lb

$142900 14666lb
HC 2, ACC 10, TS 180

We offer the Strafe 2041 in a more "kinetic" version for those on a budget or for nostalgia. With a cyber link the MG is as accurate as any LG weapon and it doesn't suffer as badly from the odd smoke cloud. 240 Explosive rounds provide the same ability to strip metal at a fraction of the cost. The need to upgrade the plant also adds some credible cargo capacity that can be used for bombs or extra magazines if you want some flexibility in your firepower. Of course you don't get that 24 shot volley, but everything comes at a price.

OK laid out this way without all the extra bells and whistles, the MG version looks more credible. It's more expensive than the original STRAFE design but it is equal in performance (other than having 20 x 12 shot volleys rather than the option to have 5 x 24 shot ones).

The STRAFE 2041 costs almost $26K more to gain the ability to put the same amount of damage onto a target in half the time. If there is a lot of smoke in your airspace you might find your opportunity to fire limited (but you only need half the opportunities). Personally at 180 MPH, I am not sure smoke will be around long enough to make a difference, but it needs to be acknowledged.

So the question really is whether you want 24d or 12d per turn. Sustained combat vs one a half or even a quarter of the length. If the object is to strip metal, in my mind you want to do it quickly, but I accept that if you need to strip 40 points of metal, you will probably need more than 120 shots so the 2041(M) version is better than the VG2 version. Whether it is better than the 2041 LG version is debateable and paying $255 per shot vs $50 seems a lot and is going to send your through life costs through the roof. Of course you may be ending fights more quickly be saving on those oh so expensive FP armour repairs (though if you sacrifice performance each design can take 100+ pts of metal and you probably won't need to make many repairs).

I am not sure it is possible to credibly argue these softer issues as they are vastly situational.

Strafe 2041(MML) by Swordtart

Remove all Plant upgrades,
Replace each LG VFRP with 3 MMLs with 10 std, rounds each,
Add a link to each set of 3 MMLs
Remove all VFRP extra magazines,
Remove Targeting Laser,
Replace HRSWC with Cyberlink,
Cargo 3 spc, 493lb

$117800 13333lb
HC 2, ACC 10, TS 180

The Strafe 2041(MML) is much cheaper but much less capable. With only 120 rounds and 12 shot capability it is the worst of both worlds. The MML is not laser guided and even with a cyberlink is still less accurate than the M version. It is however significantly cheaper.

I have only included this option for completeness as we discussed MMLs. I suspect it is a very inefficient design (and laser-guidance would make it even worse).

Maybe the 4-space EWP versions with scope for options such as BCs or paired RRs or RLs can swing the balance!

Last edited by swordtart; 09-25-2021 at 04:04 PM.
swordtart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2021, 08:50 AM   #70
43Supporter
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Default Re: Silly Cars

Quote:
Originally Posted by swordtart View Post
You link the weapon, not each round of ammunition.
I'd need to look up ADQ&A, but I recall a ruling where the additional $50 link was needed for individual rounds in multi-shot rocket weapons; big reason why no one ever used LG in the '90s.

At any rate: One is still paying multiple thousands of dollars for LG, where the massed-MG approach is very-much less expensive. (The cost to LG one VFRP is [200 x 30 =] $6,000 just for the ammo alone, where one MG is only $500.)

Most of the _'39 Strafe_'s additional cost is in the power-plant, and rotor, upgrades; this being an "upgrade" rather than a frame-off rebuild, I stuck with as much Original Equipment as possible, so no enlarging of the EWPs, or replacing same with Weapon Wings. (I'm away from home at the moment; when I get back, I'm going to try to put together a website for my stuff, to include "flavor-text" explaining all this.) The increase in PF allowed the addition of MGs without having to substantially alter the main design.

I considered ATG-HESH, but those got really heavy really fast, and didn't have quite enough ammo or T-H.
__________________
"Dale *who*?"

The Jeremy Clarkson Debate Course:
1) I'm Right. 2) You're Wrong. 3) The End.
43Supporter is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:22 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.