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Old 07-30-2013, 12:58 AM   #11
Mailanka
 
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Default Re: Powers: Illusion clarification

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Originally Posted by littleleezard View Post
and yes, 85 points buys a lot, but illusion wont kill, it will subdue: the effect ends when the foe is KOd. And it's been mentioned, as with that innate attack, an innate that hurts FP is more expensive because it can subdue effectively. And subdued foes are easy to kill. Illusion (stigmata) subdues, and also, indirectly, enables free kills.
For example, it would buy Mind Control with Independence (for exactly 85 points). You can inflict damage on your target slowly. I can use my target to kill everyone around him. I'm honestly not that impressed by Mental Illusion: I think it's overpriced.

But all you've basically discovered is that there's a second layer to the game, a psychic one rather than a physical one. You argue that someone needs "absurdly high will," but that's not really true. For one thing, Will is very cheap: It comes as part of IQ, so any clever character will have the will to defeat this, and those who just want will on its own only buy it for 5 points per level, and those who want to resist mental powers simply take Mental Strength: for 4 points, it gives Will+2 protection against your effect. For 200 points, an IQ 14 with Mental Strength at Will +2 is quite reasonable, and gives a Will of 16 for the purposes of defeating your effect. If a character has Neutralize or Resistance to your particular power-set, he also has quite some defenses against that.

What's that? Not actually part of a power-set? The GM didn't realize you'd be doing this? Right, this is the problem with handing people a book and expecting them to make coherent characters from it. I think the ideal GURPS game is built around a premise. This character in a proper secret psionic conspiracy universe is perfectly fine and will often be defeated. This character in Transhuman Space would be nigh-unstoppable, and rightfully require a huge Unusual Background cost (or be disallowed outright), not because he's discovered a power-combo that's unbeatable in GURPS (all maledictions and mind control work in exactly the same way), but because he exists in a world that knows no defense against this sort of attack.

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Unless I'm throwing mages and geniuses as combatants at the party, I'm worried 300 point laser gun super soldier would be trivial. It's a TL10 game, with crazy armor and weapons available, yet all the DR and guns skill in the world is worthless. Sure, he can negate a-10 for shooting blind, but I still can argue why's he attack the unarmored modesting looking women (illusionist) over any other party member. I haven't gotten far into the campaign, but im worried I can't have a boss fight because of one uber lockdown power. The only effective defense against illusion is having a horde of weaker enemies all at once as they can only be locked down one at a time. And I'm pretty sure that would wipe the party.
This is exactly what I mean. In a secret psionic-conspiracy universe (like the one from the original GURPS Psionic Powers or GURPS Cabal), this is no problem. Cabalists are always going to send mages and super geniuses at this guy, because that's all cabalists are. They'll also be armored to the gills with anti-psi and anti-magic talismans and have some creepy powers of their own (and tend to be remarkably vulnerable to straight-up gun battles). But if you're running Blade Runner, then it becomes a serious issue.

My suggestion? Fold his mental powerset into the campaign. Require him to take a power modifier, like psionic, for his ability. This is a limitation, so he even gets points back. YAY! Then begin to fold in more psychic characters, as allies at first: Other psychics, mentors for psychics, etc. Then, once it's been established that this is a thing, start introducing psychic hunters, anti-psis and men-in-black and so on. At this point, you can adequately challenge him, which is the point. We're not trying to smoosh the psi, just let him have a little fun too, instead of one-shotting all opposition

(and do note that illusions can be disbelieved and ignored. You can't see through it, but once it's obvious that the guy has illusioned you, you can just carry on doing what you were doing and hope you still get your kill. After all, at that point, it's no worse than an over-priced Obscure, except for the whole "slowly killing you" part)
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Old 07-30-2013, 01:04 AM   #12
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Default Re: Powers: Illusion clarification

Incidentally if there's anyone who should have a titanic Will plus a Mind Shield, it's an actual Big Boss.
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Old 07-30-2013, 04:11 AM   #13
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Default Re: Powers: Illusion clarification

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Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
Incidentally if there's anyone who should have a titanic Will plus a Mind Shield, it's an actual Big Boss.
It's also not really unreasonable for opponents to have considerable Will. Will assists with Intimidation, Fright Checks, Contests of Will (from Martial Arts), Power-Blow, Meditation, and resisting influence rolls, above and beyond its impact in resisting malediction-like attacks. I'd actually expect elite, highly motivated and very independent soldiers to be sporting some solid levels of will: They're not easily frightened or dissuaded and they are, themselves, rather frightening.

I wouldn't give such will to everyone. Soldiers trained to act on their superior's orders without thinking, automaton-like, or easily-swayed simpleton fanatics who have joined The Cult because it's easier than thinking (Extreme Fanaticism gives a +3 Will to resist being forced to betray the cult anyway), or simply inexperienced, young or kinda lame street thugs/punks would all probably have low Will.
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Old 07-30-2013, 04:43 AM   #14
Peter Knutsen
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Default Re: Powers: Illusion clarification

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Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
Magery gives you more versatility at less character point cost. Advantages let you exceed the limits built into (most) spells. It's a tradeoff.
Assuming the magic system from GURPS Magic even exists in the world in which the campaign takes place. That's never a given.
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Old 07-30-2013, 07:20 AM   #15
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Default Re: Powers: Illusion clarification

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Originally Posted by littleleezard View Post
I've got a PC who took Illusion + Independant + Mental + Stigmata from Powers. I guess I'm a little concerned that power is infinitely more effective than any other offense I can think of. No dodge, no DR... he can sit a mile away, afflict anyone with an illusion that will kill them unless NPCs have an absurdly high Will. No FP cost, its untraceable (due to mental), the afflicted is blind and deaf with no hope of recovery. My player basically makes an exclusionary gunmen stand there and attack his victim, and says, since he has total control of the victim preceptions, all the victim's bullets/attacks appear to miss, and the illusion's attacks hit (stigmata), and that he can't see/hear the PCs.
This takes time to kill, ends if the target falls unconscious (I can see an organization getting used to your NPC and issuing sleepy-time injectors), AND he has to roll a quick contest every second to cause injury.

For just 5 more points, I could buy Affliction 1 (Heart attack +300%; Malediction +200%)[60] with Extra Will 6[30]. This lets me INSTANTLY kill targets barely visible on the horizon with a mere -3.
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Old 07-30-2013, 09:07 AM   #16
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Default Re: Powers: Illusion clarification

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Originally Posted by littleleezard View Post
How? I'd love to, but my PC basically just looks like a bystander
A bystander who isn't running away, and who is a known associate of the other PCs. She might not get much attention at first, but an organized enemy will figure it out eventually. It's a subtle power, so there should be quite a few cakewalks until they figure it out. Enemies who have no idea who the PCs are, or what their capabilities are, should get clowned one-by-one though, that's what this PC is for.

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Originally Posted by littleleezard View Post
We've only had one session so far, and another part member took a 150% point hunter enemy, and it just got neutered by illusion. Free 40 point enemy that can't hurt the party (as 'ambushing' the party would be tpk, I try to limit how screwed the party get by surprise).
No such thing as free 40 pts. A 40 pt Enemy will adapt and overcome, or be replaced by one who can. There's no reason a hunter can't bring friends, or leverage authority.

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Originally Posted by littleleezard View Post
I haven't gotten far into the campaign, but im worried I can't have a boss fight because of one uber lockdown power. The only effective defense against illusion is having a horde of weaker enemies all at once as they can only be locked down one at a time. And I'm pretty sure that would wipe the party.
This player created and wants to play a lockdown specialist - that probably does mean you can't easily have a many-against-one boss fight, the boss will need to bring threatening friends to keep it tactically interesting.
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Old 07-30-2013, 09:53 AM   #17
David Johnston2
 
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Default Re: Powers: Illusion clarification

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Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen View Post
Assuming the magic system from GURPS Magic even exists in the world in which the campaign takes place. That's never a given.
Actually the tradeoff exists as a consideration for the GM as well when deciding if to use it.
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Old 07-31-2013, 08:06 AM   #18
littleleezard
 
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Default Re: Powers: Illusion clarification

I appreciate all the feedback.

I definitely overlooked a number of psychological details such as having NPCs realize the one lady over there isn't fleeing while they engage what they think is the party, or throwing Acting rolls at the PC to remain non-suspicious. Also like the ideas of having villainous organization A analyze video feeds from a confrontation to ID who is with the player 'party' and that, without UB, such a mechanic is arguably common enough that NPCs are ready for, or bring a specialist against such features. This is enough ammo to hopefully keep my rules-lawyers and munchkins at bay. They love to call out and Metagaming I may attempt on behalf of an NPC; I have to tread lightly or have a decent reason in my back pocket. I like the offered reasons here. Yay foumrs!

And I was planning on a magic-enabled scifi world, originally with just traditional magery in mind. I had never really read Powers, just Magic, Banestorm (for fantasy-ish templates), Ultra-Tech, and Space. Was caught very off guard with players who don't need casting times or FP costs to perform 'magic.'
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