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Old 11-26-2009, 12:43 PM   #11
jacobmuller
 
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Default Re: Why can't we mix Ranged-Rapid Strike and Dual Weapon attacks?

Would it be within RAW to allow an AoA with 2 pistols, the first using a Rapid Strike on two targets and the second firing only at one of the two targets already engaged?
eg 2xRoF 3 pistols, 2 shots at target 1, 4 shots at target 2 (resolved as two separate attacks of RoF1 and RoF3).
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Old 11-26-2009, 02:30 PM   #12
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Default Re: Why can't we mix Ranged-Rapid Strike and Dual Weapon attacks?

On a related note, quick shooting bows and Dual Weapon Attack with Bows be combined (with the multiple projectile penalties to fast draw) can be combined, if you're an heroic archer, right? (I can't check right now)

I ask because Quick Shooting is modeled on Rapid Strike, but is not exactly rapid strike...
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Old 11-27-2009, 04:46 AM   #13
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Default Re: Why can't we mix Ranged-Rapid Strike and Dual Weapon attacks?

I've allowed it in my Dungeon Fantasy campaign. The penalties run up pretty fast for the multiple fast-draws involved, but it just encourages people to spend more points on the Fast-Draw skill.
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Old 06-08-2023, 07:15 AM   #14
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Default Re: Why can't we mix Ranged-Rapid Strike and Dual Weapon attacks?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
You can't mix Rapid Strike (RS) and Dual-Weapon Attack (DWA) because as written, RS is realistic and open to anyone, while the DWA option is allowed to all even if the technique is not. If we permitted the two to stack, then "realistic" warriors could get 3-4 discrete attacks per second (rather than something like Spraying Fire or Suppression Fire) without going All-Out. That would be highly unbelievable. If you want to do such tricks, the answer is "Buy Extra Attacks!", as both Gun Fu and Martial Arts recommend. RS and DWA are meant to be within the realm of human skill; capabilities that go beyond this call for superhuman advantages such as Extra Attack or even Altered Time Rate.

To put it in perspective, Gun Fu gives John Preston in Equilibrium Ambidexterity, Extra Attack 1, Extra Attack 2 (Multi-Strike), and Gunslinger, on top of Whirlwind Attack (Pistol). That is, he has up to four basic attacks with guns, which can use either hand, and often spins around and shoots six or more opponents.
Sorry for the truly ancient thread necro, but I wanted to check something. First, in response to this, GURPS Basic already allows three attacks while All-Out, and Martial Arts also expands the option to allow three to four attacks. Now, such a character should probably be using either Flurry of Blows or Weapon Master (or both) and so is probably no longer "realistic" but we're citing John Preston as an example of a character who should get Extra Attack, so realism is already out the window.

My problem with this approach is it really undercuts the value of Dual Weapon Attack at high skill levels. If we're skill 20 with Weapon Master (for example, a starting Dungeon Fantasy Swashbuckler), I could invest in Dual Weapon Attack to make two attacks at 20 or less, or I could neglect to invest in DWA and make 4 attacks with an 11 or less (17 or less with an FP per attack). Never mind the higher skill levels that the official GURPS ruleset frowns at, but everyone does anyway. I would rather imagine if you had two weapons, you would "Trade off" and half of the attacks would come from my main hand and the other half from my main hand. Can I do that? Yeah, sure, what hand I make my rapid strike from is probably up to me, but then I'm penalizing half of my attacks at a -4 "because it looks cool" or I'm investing a point in OHWT, while the guy who just uses a single weapon is doing as well as my dual weapon rapid striker for (1 point) cheaper. So once you have high levels of skill, and you want to make more than two attacks, what's the benefit of Dual Weapon Attack? "You can take Extra Attack" sure, but for those 25 points, I could take +6 levels of skill instead, gain +3 defense, and eat that Rapid Strike penalty, or two of them with Weapon Master.

Now, you're not the boss of me, as LemmingLord points out, but I still want to understand the rational behind not allowing the two to mix before I start issuing house rules. Is it a matter of complexity? If someone worked out the specifics of how it would work, is that fine? Is it a matter of believability and not pertinent to a GURPS Dragon Ball Z game? Or is it a matter of game balance where paying ~6 points for a spare, unpenalized attack is going to break most defense builds too quickly?

If you were going to allow it, what would it look like? If you would forbid it in absurd games where PCs regularly have skill 25+, why?
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Old 06-08-2023, 07:43 AM   #15
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Default Re: Why can't we mix Ranged-Rapid Strike and Dual Weapon attacks?

For my cinematic games, I allow them to stack, but think about what they are.

DWA is attacking with two different weapons at the same time. swing two swords at the same time, throwing to punches at the same time, jumping up and doing a double kick to both sides of the targets head, etc.

Rapid Strike is striking in succession with either the same weapon or different weapons. The one-two punch is the best example.

So stacking them should not be allowed because its an awkard thing in my opinion.

BUT! for a cinematic game? Yeah, I would allow it if the focus was fighting. The best example I can think of is Dhalsim from Street Fighter, spamming his double fist attack lol
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Old 06-08-2023, 08:32 AM   #16
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Default Re: Why can't we mix Ranged-Rapid Strike and Dual Weapon attacks?

Humorously, there is a RAW case (besides Quick Shooting of bows) of DWA and RS kinda-sorta stacking and being used together - Combinations. IIRC, if you're alternating hands rather than doing all attacks with a single hand, instead of defaulting to -6, -12, -18, etc, at -6 per additional attack, you instead default to -4, -9, -15, -21, etc, at -6 per additional attack beyond the third. By RAW this only applies if you're doing a specifically-trained Combination, and I don't think the first -4 is negated by having the Dual Weapon Attack Technique bought up... but I don't think you'll really break anything (beyond realism, which is probably already out the window when you're talking about characters who can just eat -15 in penalties) if you make this generally available and have DWA reduce the penalties.

Technically, this could be a bit odd in that it's the same penalty to attack with your main hand five times and your off hand once as attacking with each three times (probably alternating back and forth), at -27 either way; there may be options to address that (maybe have it still be -6 per attack, but give a bonus based on how evenly you split the attacks; note ideally you'll want options for handling characters with more than two arms while you're at it).
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