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Old 04-04-2011, 10:04 AM   #1
jivjov
 
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Default Reversal of Fortune

I had a couple questions about the Reversal of Fortune Scroll, one general, one possibly very....number-crunchy.

1) I've found in my groups that starting with the RoFS in hand unbalances the game a little too much (especially before we had enough KoMs and RoFS for each player). We thus decided to just shuffle the RoFS cards into the normal treasure deck. Its worked great so far, but are we upsetting some delicate balance that we're currently unaware of?

2) Here's the hard one...what effect do one shots or other combat-effectiveness-manipulating cards have on a Kill-o-meter that has been Reversed?

Example: My combat-effectiveness is 18. I play a RoFS, bringing me to an 81. If someone plays a +2 on me, do I go up to 83 for that combat, or does my original 18 go up to 20, making my Reversed effectiveness a 02? (So far this hasn't come up in play, as I hold my RoFS card until I'm fairly sure everyone has played all the enhancers and one-shots they can, but if it does happen, I want to have an official ruling)

Thanks so much!
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Old 04-04-2011, 10:31 AM   #2
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Default Re: Reversal of Fortune

Quote:
Originally Posted by jivjov View Post
I had a couple questions about the Reversal of Fortune Scroll, one general, one possibly very....number-crunchy.

1) I've found in my groups that starting with the RoFS in hand unbalances the game a little too much (especially before we had enough KoMs and RoFS for each player). We thus decided to just shuffle the RoFS cards into the normal treasure deck. Its worked great so far, but are we upsetting some delicate balance that we're currently unaware of?

2) Here's the hard one...what effect do one shots or other combat-effectiveness-manipulating cards have on a Kill-o-meter that has been Reversed?

Example: My combat-effectiveness is 18. I play a RoFS, bringing me to an 81. If someone plays a +2 on me, do I go up to 83 for that combat, or does my original 18 go up to 20, making my Reversed effectiveness a 02? (So far this hasn't come up in play, as I hold my RoFS card until I'm fairly sure everyone has played all the enhancers and one-shots they can, but if it does happen, I want to have an official ruling)

Thanks so much!
1) I find that the "mutually assured destruction" provided by everyone having RoF in hand is actually pretty fun and self-balancing.

2) The official rule is that the RoF takes place at the END of combat, so that once all cards have been played, you take the total on the KoM and reverse it. (Note: I don't like this rule at all, as it goes against the general principle that all cards are resolved immediately). Under that rule, in your example, you go to 02 instead of 83.

From the FAQ:
Q. My Kill-O-Meter showed 18, so I played Reversal of Fortune to change that to 81. Someone else played a +2 one-shot on me, so I'm at 83 now, right?
A. Wrong. Reversal of Fortune is not an instantaneous, one-shot effect – it's in play until the combat is resolved. So you add the +2 to 18 to get 20, and reverse that to 02, or just 2. Nasty!
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Last edited by snarky; 04-04-2011 at 10:39 AM.
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Old 04-04-2011, 11:10 AM   #3
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Default Re: Reversal of Fortune

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Originally Posted by snarky View Post
From the FAQ:
Q. My Kill-O-Meter showed 18, so I played Reversal of Fortune to change that to 81. Someone else played a +2 one-shot on me, so I'm at 83 now, right?
A. Wrong. Reversal of Fortune is not an instantaneous, one-shot effect – it's in play until the combat is resolved. So you add the +2 to 18 to get 20, and reverse that to 02, or just 2. Nasty!
Well...that's handy...note to myself: READ THE FAQ. What's funny, is i pulled my "18" value out of thin air. Turns out that precise example is covered already. >>

Sorry to clutter up the forum everyone!!
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Old 04-04-2011, 11:27 AM   #4
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Default Re: Reversal of Fortune

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Originally Posted by snarky View Post
(Note: I don't like this rule at all, as it goes against the general principle that all cards are resolved immediately).
I will point out that this is not an unfamiliar circumstance in the game (Mate being a perfect example), nor is combat resolved immediately, so there should be no assumption that every single card resolves immediately to a one-off instantaneous effect.
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Old 04-04-2011, 11:34 AM   #5
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Default Re: Reversal of Fortune

Not unfamiliar, but rare, and generally where it limits bookkeeping, rather than increases it. Having played more often with an "instant" RoF (before being made aware of the FAQ), I found the official rule to be cumbersome, and honestly less fun (constantly recalculating and swapping numbers, gaming the system to add 5 points here or 3 points there). But that's just my opinion.
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Old 04-04-2011, 12:19 PM   #6
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Default Re: Reversal of Fortune

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Originally Posted by snarky View Post
Not unfamiliar, but rare, and generally where it limits bookkeeping, rather than increases it. Having played more often with an "instant" RoF (before being made aware of the FAQ), I found the official rule to be cumbersome, and honestly less fun (constantly recalculating and swapping numbers, gaming the system to add 5 points here or 3 points there). But that's just my opinion.
Hmmmm. Gaming the system is exactly what a munchkin does, so a combination that brings that out from time to time is right in line with what the game mocks. Having to wait until the end of the combat to determine what the final combat strength is is actually less bookkeeping than trying to remember when the RoF was played.

I would also argue that it's not rare that such situations exist. In fact, many, many cards are not instant effect and discard. Races, Classes, most Items (even many one-shot Items stick around for the duration of the combat in which they are used), Hirelings, Monsters and Monster Enhancers would not be classified as cards that have instant effect and are immediate discarded when played.
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Old 04-04-2011, 12:31 PM   #7
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Default Re: Reversal of Fortune

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Originally Posted by MunchkinMan View Post
Hmmmm. Gaming the system is exactly what a munchkin does, so a combination that brings that out from time to time is right in line with what the game mocks. Having to wait until the end of the combat to determine what the final combat strength is is actually less bookkeeping than trying to remember when the RoF was played.
Not really - the card is played, the KoM is flipped, that's your new combat score. No bookkeeping required. It also makes multiple RoF's on the table more interesting - do I play it on the player or the monsters? Do I play it now, or wait until he thinks he's got 91 strength?

Quote:
I would also argue that it's not rare that such situations exist. In fact, many, many cards are not instant effect and discard. Races, Classes, most Items (even many one-shot Items stick around for the duration of the combat in which they are used), Hirelings, Monsters and Monster Enhancers would not be classified as cards that have instant effect and are immediate discarded when played.
Well, to some degree, Monster Enhancers and Monsters are "instant" in effect - the combat strength of the side is added up when they're played (at least that's how we usually play them). True, the cumulative effect takes place at the end of combat, but to me it's different with RoF - RoF makes everyone look at the KoM, adjust the score, flip it over, decide what the effect is. It's just overly complicated to me, compared with other gameplay mechanics.

Not trying to change your mind, just stating my opinion. And rather than get into a semantic argument about what "instant" means, I'll just make this my last post on the topic.
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Old 04-04-2011, 04:30 PM   #8
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Default Re: Reversal of Fortune

Reversal of Fortune is no fun if it were played as an instant effect. If it takes effect at the end of combat, as designed, you combat strength bounces from what could potentially be 17 to 71 then to 02 when someone munchkin throws a plus 3 to "help" your side. That's hilarious! It doesn't take bookkeeping either. Leave the KoM at 17, don't literally switch the numbers when RoF is played. Keep adding bonuses to your side like normal. Just know that at the end of combat those two numbers will be transposed, and then play accordingly.
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Old 04-04-2011, 09:14 PM   #9
Andrew Hackard
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Default Re: Reversal of Fortune

Dirty secret: if you turn the KOM over, you'll always be able to tell what the ROFed combat strength is.
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Old 04-04-2011, 09:47 PM   #10
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Default Re: Reversal of Fortune

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Originally Posted by Doctor Poo View Post
Reversal of Fortune is no fun if it were played as an instant effect. If it takes effect at the end of combat, as designed, you combat strength bounces from what could potentially be 17 to 71 then to 02 when someone munchkin throws a plus 3 to "help" your side. That's hilarious! It doesn't take bookkeeping either. Leave the KoM at 17, don't literally switch the numbers when RoF is played. Keep adding bonuses to your side like normal. Just know that at the end of combat those two numbers will be transposed, and then play accordingly.
The great thing about the Internet is that we don't have to agree on everything. :)
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