IT: Diffuse: Can you be crippled and dismembered? (This may need errata)

[Anthony]

I'd go with No.

[NineDaysDead]

Originally Posted by KlausPrinceOfTheUndeads

I'd be for the "No": OK, if you are diffuse there's nothing inside your arms that could be crippled (such as muscles, bones, etc.), but if I cut them off... well, they're gone. Think of a blob with pseudopods: if you cut into them, they are still working, because they lack any internal structure that you could damage enough to cripple them; if you cut them, they're on the ground.

I'm confused, given your argument don't you mean "Yes" to the question: Can a diffuse being be dismembered?

Yes. Immunity to crippling applies only to crippling, not dismemberment.

[KlausPrinceOfTheUndeads]

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead

I'm confused, given your argument don't you mean "Yes" to the question: Can a diffuse being be dismembered?

Yes. Immunity to crippling applies only to crippling, not dismemberment.

Uh, well, you're right: I misred the options. I am for the "Yes"! :P

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead

Behold!!! The answer!!!

Have you submitted this to errata@sjgames.com? You should.

[Kuroshima]

Originally Posted by KlausPrinceOfTheUndeads

I'd be for the "Yes": OK, if you are diffuse there's nothing inside your arms that could be crippled (such as muscles, bones, etc.), but if I cut them off... well, they're gone. Think of a blob with pseudopods: if you cut into them, they are still working, because they lack any internal structure that you could damage enough to cripple them; if you cut them, they're on the ground.

Well, a blob is more homogeneous than difuse, but most the blobs I imagine can extend pseudopods from any part of their bodies, and if you cut one, well, you've hurt them, but they can just form another. It's not like the arm had any internal structure. This is why I could think at giving the blob IT: Difuse. Not only they don't have a fixed internal structure, they don't even have a fixed EXTERNAL structure. It can extrude pseudopods, and as such, it has manupulators, but cutting one isn't going more than reduce the total mass of the blob (as represented by general injury -> read HP damage) but it's not going to cripple that manipulator.

Now a blob could be modeled with Homogeneous instead of Difuse, and given Regrouth and Regeneration with appropriate modifers, to get the same effects...

[blacksmith]

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead

You’re the 3rd person to raise this issue, it’s been answered and it’s still irrelevant.

How odd, I was not aware that no manipulators had been cut from 4ed. I remember seeing it in my copies.

[blacksmith]

Why can say a living being of fire with arms, get the arms crippled by dammage? It takes dammage from physical stuff, if you wanted it to be more immune make it insubstantial with a perment aura that effects the material. Then it could still be crippled but it would be harder.

[NineDaysDead]

Originally Posted by blacksmith

How odd, I was not aware that no manipulators had been cut from 4ed. I remember seeing it in my copies.

Who said "no manipulators had been cut from 4ed"? Where did anyone say that in this thread?

You've missed the point completely. It's got nothing to do with "no manipulators". Yes, if have "no manipulators" that means they can't be crippled. But even if you have manipulators, they still can't be crippled, if you have IT: Diffuse. In future, I suggest you take the time to read all the posts in a thread, as the issues you raise have already been covered.

Originally Posted by blacksmith

Why can say a living being of fire with arms, get the arms crippled by dammage?

If they have IT: Diffuse, they cannot be crippled.

Originally Posted by blacksmith

It takes dammage from physical stuff,

Yes.

Originally Posted by blacksmith

if you wanted it to be more immune

No.

Originally Posted by blacksmith

make it insubstantial with a perment aura that effects the material. Then it could still be crippled but it would be harder.

Again, if they have IT: Diffuse, they cannot be crippled.

[blacksmith]

So any being with diffuse must be able to reform any part of itself? That then compleatly fails to describe a being that can not reform arms, and if it can reform arms why is it limited to 2?

Diffuse with that makes it not able to describe a certain class of being. If you wanted that, buying no manipulators and a version of TK is a better fit anyway.

[Gollum]

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead

The problem I have with this, is that it says "immune to crippling injuries", but an explosive or area attack could still cripple them, so that isn't really immune. If page 60 didn't say "Immune" then your reasoning makes sense.

As it has been explained above, there is a difference between crippling injury and dismemberment.

You cripple a limb when you injure a bone, a muscle, or something else that prevents the creature to use its limb (at least for a while).

But diffuse creatures are "immune" to crippling injuries because they have no bone, no muscle, or nothing else similar. Their whole body is made with the same "diffuse matter".

So, you can't cripple their limb. But you can still dismember them, if you do enough damage to destroy the whole part of their body that forms the limb you are aiming at...

An example? OK.

If I cut just a little ligament on a human's arm (the good ligament), the human in question won't anymore be able to move his arm.

If I destroy one part of a swarm elemental's arm, whatever this part, there will still remain enough insects to allow the elemental swarm to move its arm. To prevent the swarm elemental to move its arm, I must destroy all the insects that forms the arm in question. And I can only do it with an area effect weapon.

So, you can dismember a diffuse creature but you can't cripple it.

And to the question "So any being with diffuse must be able to reform any part of itself?", I answer no. Only creatures with the appropriate advantage can do it.

Does it make sense or am I completely wrong?