IT: Diffuse: Can you be crippled and dismembered? (This may need errata)

[Mgellis]

Some more thoughts...

Yes, the rules are not entirely clear on this point (p. 60 vs. p. 400). And it might be a problem if a diffuse being was injured by an explosion, area effect, or cone attack (see Basic Set, p. 380).

I confess I'm not clear on the point about dismemberment. Unless I am missing something, the only times this would take place is if a) one rolls a critical failure on a HT for a crippled limb or b) a helpless character has limbs cut off by an opponent. So, most of the time, you have to be permanently crippled to be dismembered. But let's consider some examples...

You cannot dismember a Body of Swarm--it's already cut into pieces and is quite capable of reforming whenever it wants.

An air elemental doesn't have limbs, so it can't be dismembered, either.

But I suppose if you had a "humanoid mist" and you blew one of its legs off with an explosion (critical failure on HT roll after the limb takes crippling damage) and it did not have Regrowth it would be "dismembered."

(Somehow, the image of a humanoid mist having to hop around on one leg--could it get a diffuse wheelchair, I wonder?--is just a little bizarre.)

More serious would be the issue of eyes--No Eyes is not included in Diffuse, so a default Diffuse being can be blinded.

In any event, if I had to pick a location for the errata, it is probably p. 60, because I can envision situations where even a diffuse being might be hurt this way. But I suspect the situation will only come up on rare occasions; most diffuse beings will not be vulnerable to such crippling attacks because they will lack limbs that can be cut off, etc., and unless some kind of cone attack, area attack, or explosion takes place, the diffuse being would not ever be damaged so badly that those limbs would be crippled anyway. And even if such an attack did take place, you would probably kill the diffuse being rather than dismember it. An errata may be needed, but I wouldn't worry too much about it.

I hope all this helps.

Mark

[NineDaysDead]

Originally Posted by Mgellis

I confess I'm not clear on the point about dismemberment. Unless I am missing something, the only times this would take place is if a) one rolls a critical failure on a HT for a crippled limb or b) a helpless character has limbs cut off by an opponent. So, most of the time, you have to be permanently crippled to be dismembered.

You’re missing something, check page 421 under Crippling injuries:
Dismemberment: If an injury to a body part before applying the above limit was at least twice what was needed to cripple it, the body part is not just crippled but destroyed.

Originally Posted by Mgellis

But let's consider some examples...
You cannot dismember a Body of Swarm--it's already cut into pieces and is quite capable of reforming whenever it wants.

An air elemental doesn't have limbs, so it can't be dismembered, either.

You’re right about those two, but “body of water” has limbs as does the water elemental and skull spirit.

Originally Posted by Mgellis

But I suppose if you had a "humanoid mist" and you blew one of its legs off with an explosion (critical failure on HT roll after the limb takes crippling damage)

or twice the crippling threshold.

Originally Posted by Mgellis

and it did not have Regrowth it would be "dismembered."

(Somehow, the image of a humanoid mist having to hop around on one leg--could it get a diffuse wheelchair, I wonder?--is just a little bizarre.)

More serious would be the issue of eyes--No Eyes is not included in Diffuse, so a default Diffuse being can be blinded.

In any event, if I had to pick a location for the errata, it is probably p. 60, because I can envision situations where even a diffuse being might be hurt this way. But I suspect the situation will only come up on rare occasions; most diffuse beings will not be vulnerable to such crippling attacks because they will lack limbs that can be cut off, etc.,

That’s not true of “body of water” the water elemental from Magic, and the skull-spirit from Magic. It’s true that creatures without limbs can’t be crippled, but it really isn’t true that most diffuse beings will have no limbs.

Originally Posted by Mgellis

and unless some kind of cone attack, area attack, or explosion takes place, the diffuse being would not ever be damaged so badly that those limbs would be crippled anyway.

Not true, crippling can occur from an 8 on the critical table.

Originally Posted by Mgellis

And even if such an attack did take place, you would probably kill the diffuse being rather than dismember it. An errata may be needed, but I wouldn't worry too much about it.

Well, Kromm’s response was cryptic, so it doesn’t look like there’s going to be an offical explanation any time soon.

One option would be the rules on page 400 only apply to homogenous, but an offical answer might be nice.

[Gollum]

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead

An offical answer might be nice.

Maybe. Waiting for this official answer, I will just use common sense...

If the creature has limbs which can be dismemberd and which cannot be easily replaced or remade by the creature, I will use the dismemberment rule (when damage is twice the crippling threshold, with the appropriate critical success roll, etc.).

For instance, if a PC aims at the right arm of a water elemental with a flame thrower, sure, he can destroy this arm...

But if he tries to dismember a swarm elemental with an ordinary sword, he won't be able to do it: the swarm can logically re-form the limb very easily (and blowing through it, even with a huge strength, can't destroy all the insects that are forming this limb).

[NineDaysDead]

Originally Posted by Gollum

Page 380, Injury Diffuse Targets

"Impaling and piercing attacks (of any size) never do more than 1 HP of injury, regardless of penetrating damage! Other attacks can never do more than 2 HP of injury."

So, if the creature has 2 HPs or more, it is impossible to dismember it, and if the creature has 3 HPs or more, it is even impossible to cripple one of its limb.

And this makes sense: its hard to cut air, fire or watter with a sword!

Only an area effect weapon can "destroy" a "limb" of such a creature.

The problem I have with this, is that it says "immune to crippling injuries", but an explosive or area attack could still cripple them, so that isn't really immune. If page 60 didn't say "Immune" then your reasoning makes sense.

[blacksmith]

Originally Posted by hjo3

Were that the case, the blob would have a free advantage. That would need to be accounted for.

Well does it have manipulators? Having no limbs is another way to prevent them from being crippled or dismembered

[blacksmith]

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead

You’re not the first person to make this argument… But this has nothing to do with IT: Diffuse, it applies to all characters regardless of their level of injury tolerance. You’re not addressing the fact that IT: Diffuse is special, it says “This makes you immune to crippling injuries”. If it didn’t then say “(Eyes and limbs can still be crippled)” on page 400, there would be no debate.

You don't seem to know the internet very well of course there would be debate, as to weather the rule was a bad one or not.

[blacksmith]

Originally Posted by Gollum

Sorry. I didn't understand your question very well. Now I do understand it better.

I fully agree with Mgellis. And I add this:

Page 380, Injury Diffuse Targets

"Impaling and piercing attacks (of any size) never do more than 1 HP of injury, regardless of penetrating damage! Other attacks can never do more than 2 HP of injury."

So, if the creature has 2 HPs or more, it is impossible to dismember it, and if the creature has 3 HPs or more, it is even impossible to cripple one of its limb.

And this makes sense: its hard to cut air, fire or watter with a sword!

Only an area effect weapon can "destroy" a "limb" of such a creature.

Why are you limiting your self to stabing someone arm off with your sword? What does it do to cutting dammage?

[NineDaysDead]

Originally Posted by blacksmith

Well does it have manipulators? Having no limbs is another way to prevent them from being crippled or dismembered

You’re the 3rd person to raise this issue, it’s been answered and it’s still irrelevant. Yes, not having limbs means they can’t be crippled, but that applies regardless of whether you have any level of Injury Tolerance, or no level. IT: Diffuse specifically says “This makes you immune to crippling injuries”, (page 60) this supports the belief that even if they do have limbs, diffuse beings cannot be crippled.

Originally Posted by blacksmith

You don't seem to know the internet very well of course there would be debate, as to weather the rule was a bad one or not.

I meant no debate about what the rule does, not whether it was a good or bad rule. People debate whether Regrowth should cost 40 points, but nobody debates that (in 4th Ed) it does cost 40 points.

Originally Posted by blacksmith

Why are you limiting your self to stabing someone arm off with your sword?

Gollum didn’t.

Originally Posted by blacksmith

What does it do to cutting damage?

Gollum said “Other attacks can never do more than 2 HP of injury." And he’s right (only Area-effect, Cone and explosive attacks can do more than 2 points of damage. They do normal damage) see page 380.

[NineDaysDead]

Behold!!! The answer!!!

Originally Posted by Kromm

What happened is that a further qualifier was clipped from within the parentheses on p. 400. That should read, "(Eyes and limbs can still be crippled, if Homogenous.)"

Now time for more debate!!!
So what does this mean for dismemberment? Can a diffuse being be dismembered?

Yes. Immunity to crippling applies only to crippling, not dismemberment.

Or

No. dismemberment is twice the crippling threshold, and diffuse beings have no crippling threshold.

[KlausPrinceOfTheUndeads]

I'd be for the "Yes": OK, if you are diffuse there's nothing inside your arms that could be crippled (such as muscles, bones, etc.), but if I cut them off... well, they're gone. Think of a blob with pseudopods: if you cut into them, they are still working, because they lack any internal structure that you could damage enough to cripple them; if you cut them, they're on the ground.